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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 20:23:02 GMT
This discussion was taking over the other thread, so let's move it to it's own thread. Basic ground rules to keep this civil:
- If you vote yes, briefly explain why, and list 3 models/themes you think could stand to be nerfed, with a brief explanation after each. - If you vote no, briefly explain why not.
Let's keep this civil - no faction-bias or personal attacks, just a clean discussion of a faction that's being thrown around as potentially overpowered. Keep in mind that Storm Lances seem likely to be getting a nerf soon, so try and consider the faction minus the influence of Storm Lances.
I vote yes.
1. Kara Sloan: bends the meta just by existing, and even without seeing significant play time. Boring to play (and to play against,) with limited counterplay outside of list construction.
2. Journeyman Warcaster: Too much of an auto-include, for too little cost. Provides too much benefit in too efficient of a package, from fueling jacks, to handing out AS to anything and everything. Too omnipresent in Cygnar theme lists (I see no reason for him to be in Storm Division, for instance)
3. Heavy Metal: too non-restrictive for the benefits it gives. Needs to either restrict the jacks you can take, or the support you can access, to avoid making it an automatic choice for any jack-heavy list.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 20:29:45 GMT
No! Git Gud Filthy Scrubs!
Kind Regards
Completely impartial player....
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 26, 2017 20:33:39 GMT
In my limited [exactly once] playing against a Jack heavy Cygnar list, I beat them with my throw-together starting Ret list. So, not in my experience.
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Post by beownage on Jun 26, 2017 20:39:20 GMT
In my limited [exactly once] playing against a Jack heavy Cygnar list, I beat them with my throw-together starting Ret list. So, not in my experience. I've only played Haley 2 once and won with Krueger 2, seemed balanced to me too!
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 26, 2017 20:42:35 GMT
No not OP especially after the stormlance CID changes. Haley 2 and 3 can be an awful to play against but they can be beaten.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 20:45:39 GMT
I'm sure that a pool where just a tiny fraction of the people play Cygnar and all the rest doesn't is the best way to decide if a faction is OP or not. Not even going to partecipate, I'm tired of this discussions. (And this comes from one who said that Stormlances were OP since MK3 release, had many arguments with other Cygnar players on the old forum about it, and it's glad that they have been addressed) P.S.: He is in 2 lists out of 4. Storm Division is mainly Stryker's and Nemo's division. Almost any Journeymans in the fluff, including Stryker and Haley themselves, were trained by Nemo, and Stryker is likely getting a Journeyman in the new book... But sure, JR has no thematically sense to be there... Maybe you would also add where it does have sense to be?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 26, 2017 20:46:08 GMT
"Is faction X overpowered" is a very general and usually loaded question, so I don't want to address that.
However, I will agree that Cygnar's junior does rub me the wrong way. IIRC, for all the other factions, the buffs on their juniors are limited to battlegroup only, which creates a bit of a check on their power level. It's only Cygnar which has a junior capable of putting his buff on any target, including models/units, which can make for some very powerful interactions. Was he the first junior that PP came out with? Because it kind of shows.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 20:53:26 GMT
This discussion was taking over the other thread, so let's move it to it's own thread. Basic ground rules to keep this civil: - If you vote yes, briefly explain why, and list 3 models/themes you think could stand to be nerfed, with a brief explanation after each. - If you vote no, briefly explain why not. Let's keep this civil - no faction-bias or personal attacks, just a clean discussion of a faction that's being thrown around as potentially overpowered. Keep in mind that Storm Lances seem likely to be getting a nerf soon, so try and consider the faction minus the influence of Storm Lances. I vote yes. 1. Kara Sloan: bends the meta just by existing, and even without seeing significant play time. Boring to play (and to play against,) with limited counterplay outside of list construction. 2. Journeyman Warcaster: Too much of an auto-include, for too little cost. Provides too much benefit in too efficient of a package, from fueling jacks, to handing out AS to anything and everything. Too omnipresent in Cygnar theme lists (I see no reason for him to be in Storm Division, for instance) 3. Heavy Metal: too non-restrictive for the benefits it gives. Needs to either restrict the jacks you can take, or the support you can access, to avoid making it an automatic choice for any jack-heavy list. This is a pretty broad question. And I think you actually want to ask "are there elements of Cygnar which are OP?" I would have to say no, now that the Storm Lances have gone through CID. To address your points: 1. Kara Sloan is very one note. She is also strong. I don't see how her being boring contributes to being overpowered. She is a binary caster, either very strong or very meh. It might be good to change some stuff around on her, but for each thing taken away, another thing should be granted for her. 2. The journeyman is in 2/4 Cygnar themes. He has no thematic reason to not be in Storm division. The journeymen warcasters are supposed to be tagging along with casters. If junior weren't in SD, then PP would come up with a storm knight Journeyman Warcaster. Additionally, thematic conveniance does not contribute to something being overpowered. The journeyman provides a strong ability for reletively low cost. But this is not particular to Cygnar. I present the following models as a counterpoint: 1. Choir 2. Krielstone 3. Corollary 4. Shifting stones All of these models are quite cheap but provide abilities that are not in proportion to that cost. 3. Heavy Metal is supposed to be Cygnar's jack heavy theme. It's in the fluff description. It's just a bunch of jacks. I fail to understand why it shouldn't be the first option for a jack army, because that is its description. If I want a trencher army, I should play gravediggers. If I want lightning, I play storm division. If I want gun mages, I play SotT. All of Cygnar's themes are very simplistic in their composition. And the benefits that are unique to heavy metal... are not that unique. Is +2 deployment and repo3 for solos that strong? Oh, you meant free solos? Well, that's not unique to heavy metal either.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 26, 2017 20:56:53 GMT
The e-leap rule. You should have to hit an enemy model to leap. Or make it so you have to damage the model. Journeyman. Too much useful utilty . Other warmachine factions should have a similar journeyman that can hand out a good non bg buff. All the casters with mage sight. Especially Caine3. It really just makes the game of i can't hide from you. I've found very little counterplay and I'm really annoyed. Especially since caine 3 has a an easy shadow fire shots to hand out.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 20:58:09 GMT
"Is faction X overpowered" is a very general and usually loaded question, so I don't want to address that. However, I will agree that Cygnar's junior does rub me the wrong way. IIRC, for all the other factions, the buffs on their juniors are limited to battlegroup only, which creates a bit of a check on their power level. It's only Cygnar which has a junior capable of putting his buff on any target, including models/units, which can make for some very powerful interactions. Was he the first junior that PP came out with? Because it kind of shows. He was the first. But the differences between junior and the other journeymen stems from a difference in purpose. Junior is not built to run a battlegrpup. He has focus 3, and no defensive capabilities which are common on other journeymen (who have focus 4). Instead, Junior is a straight up buff bot. Using all of his power, he can upkeep a spell, give a jack a focus, and hide behind a rock, trying not to die.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 21:05:57 GMT
The e-leap rule. You should have to hit an enemy model to leap. Or make it so you have to damage the model. Journeyman. Too much useful utilty . Other warmachine factions should have a similar journeyman that can hand out a good non bg buff. All the casters with mage sight. Especially Caine3. It really just makes the game of i can't hide from you. I've found very little counterplay and I'm really annoyed. Especially since caine 3 has a an easy shadow fire shots to hand out. 1. Now that Lances have been adjusted, there isn't as much easy access to e-leap guns. I don't think the remaining ones, or their interactions, are over the curve. 2. Does every faction get choir and a corallary as well? 3. There are 2 casters with mage sight: pSeige and Caine3. Counterplay: kill Caine, kill Ryan or Watts, hide beind an obstruction, or jam him hard to force an early feat.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 21:11:08 GMT
The e-leap rule. You should have to hit an enemy model to leap. Or make it so you have to damage the model. Journeyman. Too much useful utilty . Other warmachine factions should have a similar journeyman that can hand out a good non bg buff. All the casters with mage sight. Especially Caine3. It really just makes the game of i can't hide from you. I've found very little counterplay and I'm really annoyed. Especially since caine 3 has a an easy shadow fire shots to hand out. 1. Now that Lances have been adjusted, there isn't as much easy access to e-leap guns. I don't think the remaining ones, or their interactions, are over the curve. 2. Does every faction get choir and a corallary as well? 3. There are 2 casters with mage sight: pSeige and Caine3. Counterplay: kill Caine, kill Ryan or Watts, hide beind an obstruction, or jam him hard to force an early feat. I'm confused. Is the squire Cygnar's choir, or is Junior? Because I've heard similar arguments for why both of them should be unrestricted. One of them might qualify as a staple on that level, but surely not both. Keep in mind that: - Menoth Jacks have lower than average stats to compensate for the choir - Convergence jacks don't get power up - Trolls have lower stats to compensate for the Krielstone (and pay through the nose in both points and fury for it) - Shifting Stones are very limited in doing anything except fury management and healing. What does Cygnar lose to make up for access to Arcane shield, extra focus, and expanded control area?
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 21:29:35 GMT
1. Now that Lances have been adjusted, there isn't as much easy access to e-leap guns. I don't think the remaining ones, or their interactions, are over the curve. 2. Does every faction get choir and a corallary as well? 3. There are 2 casters with mage sight: pSeige and Caine3. Counterplay: kill Caine, kill Ryan or Watts, hide beind an obstruction, or jam him hard to force an early feat. I'm confused. Is the squire Cygnar's choir, or is Junior? Because I've heard similar arguments for why both of them should be unrestricted. One of them might qualify as a staple on that level, but surely not both. Keep in mind that: - Menoth Jacks have lower than average stats to compensate for the choir - Convergence jacks don't get power up - Trolls have lower stats to compensate for the Krielstone (and pay through the nose in both points and fury for it) - Shifting Stones are very limited in doing anything except fury management and healing. What does Cygnar lose to make up for access to Arcane shield, extra focus, and expanded control area? Things like not having a multiwound medium-base unit (or multiwound in general aside from cavalry?). Or having melee infantry without much chances to be delivered without AS? Even Cygnar jacks have less than averange ARM and hit boxes compared with other jacks (yes, with slightly better DEF, but ask a Cryx player, that has even more DEF than Cygnar, if that is good at keeping their jacks alive). But you are right, why should Cygnar have anything good? They don't deserve it, they are filthy blues after all!!!!1111!!!!!11
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 21:38:04 GMT
1. Now that Lances have been adjusted, there isn't as much easy access to e-leap guns. I don't think the remaining ones, or their interactions, are over the curve. 2. Does every faction get choir and a corallary as well? 3. There are 2 casters with mage sight: pSeige and Caine3. Counterplay: kill Caine, kill Ryan or Watts, hide beind an obstruction, or jam him hard to force an early feat. I'm confused. Is the squire Cygnar's choir, or is Junior? Because I've heard similar arguments for why both of them should be unrestricted. One of them might qualify as a staple on that level, but surely not both. Keep in mind that: - Menoth Jacks have lower than average stats to compensate for the choir - Convergence jacks don't get power up - Trolls have lower stats to compensate for the Krielstone (and pay through the nose in both points and fury for it) - Shifting Stones are very limited in doing anything except fury management and healing. What does Cygnar lose to make up for access to Arcane shield, extra focus, and expanded control area? Junior is more akin to the choir or beast handlers. Why can't both be a staple? Is there a limit? Unlike other commentors I won't say that the difference in power is made up for in the def/arm stat. That's false. But part of it can be seen in the boxes of Cygnar jacks. The heavies have 30 boxes to Khador's 34 and Protectorate's 32. But that's not all. Cygnar has very few damage buffs for melee (there are some, but they're mainly feats). Menoth jacks do lose out on some defense/arm and some p+s. But choir can protect them from shooting/spells, or bump up their damage. Likewise, Cygnar jacks lose out on some boxes, but get access to really good arm for one of them.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 21:43:36 GMT
I'm confused. Is the squire Cygnar's choir, or is Junior? Because I've heard similar arguments for why both of them should be unrestricted. One of them might qualify as a staple on that level, but surely not both. Keep in mind that: - Menoth Jacks have lower than average stats to compensate for the choir - Convergence jacks don't get power up - Trolls have lower stats to compensate for the Krielstone (and pay through the nose in both points and fury for it) - Shifting Stones are very limited in doing anything except fury management and healing. What does Cygnar lose to make up for access to Arcane shield, extra focus, and expanded control area? Things like not having a multiwound medium-base unit (or multiwound in general aside from cavlry?). Or having melee infantry without much chances to be delivered without AS? Even Cygnar jacks have less than averange ARM and hit boxes compared with other jacks (yes, with slightly better DEF, but ask a Cryx player, that has even more DEF than Cygnar, if that is good at keeping their jacks alive). But you are right, why should Cygnar have anything good? They don't deserve it, they are filthy blues after all!!!!1111!!!!!11 I. Play. Cygnar. So seriously, cut the 'woe is me, everyone hates Cygnar' crap. I also play other factions, and there is a noticeable power difference when playing Cygnar vs. playing other factions. Every army has similar restrictions on what they do and do not get. Circle doesn't get Heavy Cavalry (or any infantry that can hurt heavies reliably.) Ret doesn't get multi-wound medium infantry. Khador doesn't get lights. None of them translate that into 'therefore, we are entitled to overpowered support piece X!' And Cygnar's infantry is not abnormally difficult to deliver. Some of it is crap, but things like Stormblades (who again, I never see AS on, ever) can be delivered, as can Sword Knights. Blur is in faction, as is deceleration, deflection, etc. If you want 'hard to deliver' infantry, look at Circle. 13/13 wolves, infantry that melts to blasts, or is so slow (with no in-faction speed buffs) that it never gets where it's going. 12 Def is a fairly significant break point for getting hit (look at all the Skorne complaints over Titans getting their defense dropped.) Mat 6 hits Def 12 72% of the time, compared to 91.6 at Def 10. That's non-negligible when you're talking about a beast with 6 or so attacks. It's not as good as Defense 12-13, or 13-14, but it's not nothing. And the reason Cryx complains about it's jacks (specifically slayer-chassis) is because they get shot to death (or crippled - those jacks lose arms so quickly it's not even funny) by highly accurate shooting (mostly coming from Cygnar) and because they lack hitting power when they get there. I don't see many people complaining about the survivability crabjacks (12/18, fewer boxes than an ironclad.) Would they LIKE Arcane shield? yes, of course they would. But unlike cygnar, they don't claim to NEED it to function.
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