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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 27, 2017 8:01:15 GMT
E-leaps and lightning generator are fine, just stop clustering your high def low arm models together like an utter chump. Spread them out, intersperse them with hardier models, stop playing the way you usually play and complaining when you lose, you have to adjust depending on what you face Actually electroleap doesnt care about defense and its actually quite difficult to spread stuff out 5 inches or so. Shield walls need to be closer for instance. Its not as easy as you say. Its a pretty huge advantage. Stop downplaying your major edges. 1) I know e-leaps don't care about defence (not sure where you got the impression I said otherwise), but they do care about armour, that is why you can use other models to ground out the leaps and not die
2) its not 5", its fractionally over 4", you can pre-measure this
3) shield wall troops are actually fine against e-leaps, on average they are going to be be arm 17/18, add an armour buff or mini-feat on top and you get arm 19/20/21, even with the +2 from a Firefly that is not reliably killing them (unless they play Nemo 3, but that is 1 caster)
4) one thing I did not mention is counter-charging models to kill/engage spark nodes they run up
are e-leaps good? yes! are they this crazy broken insurmountable problem? no!
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 27, 2017 8:01:39 GMT
I still see some people not playing nice despite cryptix's warning. Keep it in mind that if it happens again, the thread will be locked.
Ryilan
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Post by jisidro on Jun 27, 2017 11:37:40 GMT
I think it's too streamlined a faction. It trades of some tricks on most of the faction (Mostly the parts not played) for threat/range.
1 - Stormlances. Hit as hard as Protectorate Cav under Battle Driven and trade blessed/Battle Driven for e-leaps/ranged attacks/Assault/Def 13/2" melee all the time. Hit as Hard as Khador infantry trade stuff mentioned above for Wall of ARM/+1 ARM/Crit KDs/Steady... Still demolish every other cav unit except perhaps the skorne kitties in Makeda2 (are they played elsewhere? Xerxis1?)
2 - eleaps still bypass every aspect of the game except ARM/boxes. Should not leap off friendly or perhaps electrical immune models.
3 - Themes are OP when compared to the majority of the other existing themes. Perhaps they won't be after everything gets released but thats 2 years away. Since PP will change its mind at any moment we'll probably never get there.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 27, 2017 12:15:32 GMT
I don't think they are necessarily overpowered, but they are definitely strong and one of the most obnoxious factions to play against and eLeap is a huge aspect of that (Haley 2/3 is another). I still feel it will be an uphill battle, but with the nerf to Stormlances it will be more manageable.
There are a lot of people here that underestimate the value of electroleap though. 4" is impossible to spread out for, a full unit will take up about a quarter of the whole board if spread out that way and your support must not get close to anything they actually want to support. This is especially true for colossals, which are more a liability than a strength because they simply leap further. Putting tough/immune/Incorporeal models inbetween the ones you want to protect is just inviting the Cygnar player to target them with the original attack and still fry your high DEF models which is what they wanted in the first place. Any single-wound model with ARM 15 or less is basically dead against POW 10 and any model with ARM 13, 5 boxes (many support solos) have a high enough chance to die that you shouldn't take the risk. Simply the existence of Electro-leap is preventing people from properly using their support.
I don't really understand why they wanted to add that eLeap couldn't go back to lightning immune models to MK3, that was a pretty big buff, especially since it arcs 4" and basically ignores your own models. If I had to change it, I would take away that first part, like it was in MK2, and reduce the range, preferably to 2", but probably to 3" to still give it an edge over AoEs. It's not up to me though and I doubt this'll happen.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 27, 2017 12:25:41 GMT
Perhaps we could look at the models in Cygnar that have e-leap, lightning generator, and chain lightning as either a spell or ranged ability.
Soon to be changed (probably): Storm Lances (e-leap on gun)
Lightning Generator: Firefly N3mo Storm Strider Storm Tower Laddermore
E-leap: Stormclad
Chain Lightning: Nemo1 Haley1 N3mo
E-leap (but the attack in not electrical): Tempest Blazers
So the above models, excluding blazers, can shoot a friendly, lightning immune model to e-leap off of them without damaging them.
Are they worth talking about specifically?
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Post by zorrobard47 on Jun 27, 2017 12:29:23 GMT
I have 10 factions, and I don't find Cygnar over powered. Cygnar is definitely solid, but they don't seem to outclass most of the factions. I find factions like Khador, Retribution, Legion, Skorne and Circle totally able to compete with them, but that's just me.
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Post by dazzla on Jun 27, 2017 12:45:19 GMT
This is a bit of a surprising discussion. I think Cygnar are strong but not the most powerful faction. The moderate nerfing of stormlances will further pull Cygnar back to the pack.
Of course the ability to use electro leaps is not confined to Cygnar. Circle also has access to electro leaps and electrical immunity. Not as common, but certainly there.
The ability to target your own model (without harming it) with the intent of bouncing attacks on to enemy models is a great part of the game and also not confined to Cygnar. One of my favourite tricks playing menoth is hitting one of my own fire immune models with ashes to ashes. The enemy models suffer a damage roll without reference to their defences etc and it is not classed as an attack.
Another great tactic for Menoth is to also target their own flameguard cleansers in order to get better attack angles with other flameguard cleansers.
IMO all factions tend to have their own strengths, some of which are a characteristic of the faction although not being unique. Cygnar are no different.
Is there objective evidence that Cygnar are overpowered? I had a quick look at the discount games table of tournament results and from that table it didn't seem that Cygnar have been dominant in recent months.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 27, 2017 12:54:54 GMT
Perhaps we could look at the models in Cygnar that have e-leap, lightning generator, and chain lightning as either a spell or ranged ability. Soon to be changed (probably): Storm Lances (e-leap on gun) Lightning Generator: Firefly N3mo Storm Strider Storm Tower Laddermore E-leap: Stormclad Chain Lightning: Nemo1 Haley1 N3mo E-leap (but the attack in not electrical): Tempest Blazers So the above models, excluding blazers, can shoot a friendly, lightning immune model to e-leap off of them without damaging them. Are they worth talking about specifically? You missed out e-leap on Stormguard, whatever they are?
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 27, 2017 12:56:16 GMT
I think there's something people need to get straight. There's a difference between overpowered and not fun to play against.
Overpowered means that there is no way to beat the piece without dedicating an inordinate amount of resources to it, it has no weakness, but Cygnar does - their defensive stats are a bit below the curve and they basically always have Snipe and Arcane Shield injected into their stats.
A NPE means that there is too much non-interaction or straight up hostility due to the playstyle of the faction. In this case I refer to the Tau of 7th edition 40k. They are a faction which has a faction identity of highly mobile shooting, which was extremely non-interactive for both players and led to Tau being labeled as powergamers and bad people thanks to the way their army worked. I think Cygnar is somewhat like this, and why its always a bad idea to have a faction's identity to be "They can shoot good."
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 12:57:35 GMT
Perhaps we could look at the models in Cygnar that have e-leap, lightning generator, and chain lightning as either a spell or ranged ability. Soon to be changed (probably): Storm Lances (e-leap on gun) Lightning Generator: Firefly N3mo Storm Strider Storm Tower Laddermore E-leap: Stormclad Chain Lightning: Nemo1 Haley1 N3mo E-leap (but the attack in not electrical): Tempest Blazers So the above models, excluding blazers, can shoot a friendly, lightning immune model to e-leap off of them without damaging them. Are they worth talking about specifically? You missed out e-leap on Stormguard, whatever they are? What the hell are Storm Guard?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 27, 2017 13:24:45 GMT
Perhaps we could look at the models in Cygnar that have e-leap, lightning generator, and chain lightning as either a spell or ranged ability. Soon to be changed (probably): Storm Lances (e-leap on gun) Lightning Generator: Firefly N3mo Storm Strider Storm Tower Laddermore E-leap: Stormclad Chain Lightning: Nemo1 Haley1 N3mo E-leap (but the attack in not electrical): Tempest Blazers So the above models, excluding blazers, can shoot a friendly, lightning immune model to e-leap off of them without damaging them. Are they worth talking about specifically? You missed out e-leap on Stormguard, whatever they are? I only included e-leaps at range because melee attacks can't hit-and-not-kill lightning immune friendlies. But yes there are stormguard.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 27, 2017 13:25:03 GMT
On the overpowered means can't beat it unless you dedicate unordinate etc. I'll bring up Caine 3. So far the only counterplay I've been able to figure out is hope there is a building in the middle of the board and not a forest. Also bring 2 shield guards (4 if he has taryn). Or scew defense like 17+. If you don't have a list line that say bye bye caster-senpai
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 27, 2017 13:50:19 GMT
On the overpowered means can't beat it unless you dedicate unordinate etc. I'll bring up Caine 3. So far the only counterplay I've been able to figure out is hope there is a building in the middle of the board and not a forest. Also bring 2 shield guards (4 if he has taryn). Or scew defense like 17+. If you don't have a list line that say bye bye caster-senpai Caine 3 is fine....honest....move along nothing to see....it's only 8 chargers....yes it boosts attack and damage....effective pow 17....yes I ignore that forest....fair and balanced!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 13:59:36 GMT
On the overpowered means can't beat it unless you dedicate unordinate etc. I'll bring up Caine 3. So far the only counterplay I've been able to figure out is hope there is a building in the middle of the board and not a forest. Also bring 2 shield guards (4 if he has taryn). Or scew defense like 17+. If you don't have a list line that say bye bye caster-senpai Caine 3 is an idiotic caster by PP. Not necessarily OP just not really a game. Caine goes first and crushes an opponent on turn 2, or he loses. There is hardly a difference there.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 27, 2017 14:49:34 GMT
On the overpowered means can't beat it unless you dedicate unordinate etc. I'll bring up Caine 3. So far the only counterplay I've been able to figure out is hope there is a building in the middle of the board and not a forest. Also bring 2 shield guards (4 if he has taryn). Or scew defense like 17+. If you don't have a list line that say bye bye caster-senpai Caine 3 is fine....honest....move along nothing to see....it's only 8 chargers....yes it boosts attack and damage....effective pow 17....yes I ignore that forest....fair and balanced! * eyes roll into back of head* *monotone* "yesss... everything is fine. Moving along now" * shuffles away like zombie*
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