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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 6, 2017 13:20:57 GMT
Choir being squishy isn't enough of a weakness for them to not be taken 99% of the time. Gosh, plz nerf.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Jul 6, 2017 13:25:17 GMT
I play Cygnar, and I agree - I've got the journeyman in pretty much every list.
I'm not as fluent as some, but I believe that other factions have models that are in every list as well. Menoth's Choir, Trolls' Krielstone, and I'm sure there are others.
Also, someone implied that making it mandatory for Jr to include a jack is an advantage, which is just silly. The removal of options isn't an advantage. Cygnar players are paying a minimum of 12 points to have Jr on a list. Is the firefly/charger/sentinel something they'd have wanted anyway? Probably. Is the extra focus nice? Definitely. But it's still 12+ points out of a list, and that's not nothing.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 13:25:44 GMT
But seemingly not enough to consider running a list without the Journeyman, 99% of the time. Irrelevant to the point. The idea that having Juniors to run Jacks as only being a net positive is false. I disagree. A drawback isn't really a drawback unless it is major enough to make you reconsider the option.
To use a ridiculous example. When people die, we bury them in the ground or cremate them. The drawback is that this requires effort and money, but it isn't enough of a drawback for us to consider just leaving them where they died. Unless a drawback is big enough to make you consider an alternative then it's not right to call that a drawback.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 13:29:33 GMT
Irrelevant to the point. The idea that having Juniors to run Jacks as only being a net positive is false. I disagree. A drawback isn't really a drawback unless it is major enough to make you reconsider the option.
To use a ridiculous example. When people die, we bury them in the ground or cremate them. The drawback is that this requires effort and money, but it isn't enough of a drawback for us to consider just leaving them where they died. Unless a drawback is big enough to make you consider an alternative then it's not right to call that a drawback.
That isn't true, though. A drawback can simply be a weakness of design. Design an aircraft, for example, and it will have weaknesses. You can generally choose top speed or manouvrability, more weight means worse climb but better dive, etc etc. A weakness doesn't need to be a deal breaker, it just needs to be something which is not always positive.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 13:34:38 GMT
Choir being squishy isn't enough of a weakness for them to not be taken 99% of the time. Gosh, plz nerf. Choir aren't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer 80%. Especially with troop heavy casters like High Reclaimer.
Trolls are the only faction I can think of that has a support piece taken as frequently a Junior and Trolls hate the stone. - It requires fury, - severely punishes the troll player for going second - Is very susceptible to being removed
I can't remember the last time a week went by when someone didn't suggest on the Troll forums or facebook group to try running without the stone. Troll players hate it and sill take it.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 13:38:32 GMT
I disagree. A drawback isn't really a drawback unless it is major enough to make you reconsider the option.
To use a ridiculous example. When people die, we bury them in the ground or cremate them. The drawback is that this requires effort and money, but it isn't enough of a drawback for us to consider just leaving them where they died. Unless a drawback is big enough to make you consider an alternative then it's not right to call that a drawback.
That isn't true, though. A drawback can simply be a weakness of design. Design an aircraft, for example, and it will have weaknesses. You can generally choose top speed or manouvrability, more weight means worse climb but better dive, etc etc. A weakness doesn't need to be a deal breaker, it just needs to be something which is not always positive. Hi honey, we're going on holidays on this 747, it's a great plain buy the main drawback is that it can't do spins.
One of the drawbacks of my car is that it isn't edible.
One of the drawbacks of ducks is that they can't fire machine guns.
I Could go on.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 13:38:37 GMT
Choir being squishy isn't enough of a weakness for them to not be taken 99% of the time. Gosh, plz nerf. Choir aren't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer 80%. Especially with troop heavy casters like High Reclaimer.
Trolls are the only faction I can think of that has a support piece taken as frequently a Junior and Trolls hate the stone. - It requires fury, - severely punishes the troll player for going second - Is very susceptible to being removed
I can't remember the last time a week went by when someone didn't suggest on the Troll forums or facebook group to try running without the stone. Troll players hate it and sill take it.
80% of Protectorate lists take the choir? Hell of a claim, that. Troll players hate the stone? Another hell of a claim. You'd think that if the Stone were such a Burden then Madrak 3 would be rising like a phoenix rather than sucking.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 13:39:45 GMT
That isn't true, though. A drawback can simply be a weakness of design. Design an aircraft, for example, and it will have weaknesses. You can generally choose top speed or manouvrability, more weight means worse climb but better dive, etc etc. A weakness doesn't need to be a deal breaker, it just needs to be something which is not always positive. Hi honey, we're going on holidays on this 747, it's a great plain buy the main drawback is that it can't do spins.
One of the drawbacks of my car is that it isn't edible.
One of the drawbacks of ducks is that they can't fire machine guns.
I Could go on.
If you want to choose to not listen to Cygnar players when they say their drawbacks then I don't know what to tell you.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 6, 2017 13:47:15 GMT
Choir being squishy isn't enough of a weakness for them to not be taken 99% of the time. Gosh, plz nerf. Choir aren't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer 80%. Especially with troop heavy casters like High Reclaimer.
Trolls are the only faction I can think of that has a support piece taken as frequently a Junior and Trolls hate the stone. - It requires fury, - severely punishes the troll player for going second - Is very susceptible to being removed
I can't remember the last time a week went by when someone didn't suggest on the Troll forums or facebook group to try running without the stone. Troll players hate it and sill take it.
Junior isn't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer to 80%. Especially with Gravediggers. Cuz he's not in that theme.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 6, 2017 13:53:03 GMT
But seemingly not enough to consider running a list without the Journeyman, 99% of the time. Irrelevant to the point. The idea that having Juniors to run Jacks as only being a net positive is false.
A net positive means that when you balance pros and cons you are in pro land. You are either net positive or net negative... you can't be both.
Ofc there are risks that's why the factions that don't have good cheap ranged options tend not to take them. That's why you only rarely see them in Hordes...
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 6, 2017 13:53:06 GMT
Choir being squishy isn't enough of a weakness for them to not be taken 99% of the time. Gosh, plz nerf. Choir aren't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer 80%. Especially with troop heavy casters like High Reclaimer.
Trolls are the only faction I can think of that has a support piece taken as frequently a Junior and Trolls hate the stone. - It requires fury, - severely punishes the troll player for going second - Is very susceptible to being removed
I can't remember the last time a week went by when someone didn't suggest on the Troll forums or facebook group to try running without the stone. Troll players hate it and sill take it.
Convergence has the corollary and I think every one of us gladly takes the little robot buddy in every single list. He's just so adorable.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 14:01:50 GMT
Choir aren't taken 99% of the time. It's nearer 80%. Especially with troop heavy casters like High Reclaimer.
Trolls are the only faction I can think of that has a support piece taken as frequently a Junior and Trolls hate the stone. - It requires fury, - severely punishes the troll player for going second - Is very susceptible to being removed
I can't remember the last time a week went by when someone didn't suggest on the Troll forums or facebook group to try running without the stone. Troll players hate it and sill take it.
Convergence has the corollary and I think every one of us gladly takes the little robot buddy in every single list. He's just so adorable. Nerf plz
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Post by pangurban on Jul 6, 2017 14:22:12 GMT
Irrelevant to the point. The idea that having Juniors to run Jacks as only being a net positive is false. I disagree. A drawback isn't really a drawback unless it is major enough to make you reconsider the option.
To use a ridiculous example. When people die, we bury them in the ground or cremate them. The drawback is that this requires effort and money, but it isn't enough of a drawback for us to consider just leaving them where they died. Unless a drawback is big enough to make you consider an alternative then it's not right to call that a drawback.
Dude, come on. A drawback is not really a drawback if it's irrelevant (say, RAT 3 on a jack that doesn't have a ranged weapon), but as long as it is relevant it *is* a drawback. Even if the pros of a model outweigh the (relevant) cons by a ridiculous margin, the cons are still cons.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 14:22:14 GMT
Hi honey, we're going on holidays on this 747, it's a great plain buy the main drawback is that it can't do spins.
One of the drawbacks of my car is that it isn't edible.
One of the drawbacks of ducks is that they can't fire machine guns.
I Could go on.
If you want to choose to not listen to Cygnar players when they say their drawbacks then I don't know what to tell you. To be honest, it feels a lot like trying to discuss the game with a brick wall at this stage.
You're so incredibly entrenched in your position and defensive that no real value can be gained.
I'm happy just to walk away.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 6, 2017 14:24:40 GMT
Convergence has the corollary and I think every one of us gladly takes the little robot buddy in every single list. He's just so adorable. Nerf plz There's a corollary in every Convergence list and they still suck outside their theme? Sounds like cause for a buff to me, not a nerf.
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