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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 5, 2017 20:45:38 GMT
I honestly don't think that Cygnar and Trolls pay for their support pieces in their warnouns, since 12\18 30 boxes is essentially the average for that category of model. However, even if just as a thought experiment, do their infantry have the same average stat total? From what I can tell, I don't think they do. I think that, if anything in those factions is paying a stone\AS "tax," it is the infantry who are generally less tanky, and those that are (warders) are incredibly pillowfisted for their cost. If needed, assume stormlances don't exist for this comparison, as they are they seem to be the exception not the rule. I mean, you can pretend that Stormlances (or the Stormwall) don't exist for the purposes of comparison, but that comparison is effectively DOA, as those two model/units are the most common targets for Arcane Shield. A single target buff is incapable of shoring up a systemic weakness in a whole model type, especially when attached to an FA C model. People don't use AS to get Stormblades or Stormguard up to an 'acceptable' ARM value, they use it to make their already strong choices extremely difficult to remove. But again, if it's intended to be a fix for infantry, then a) storm lances should have lower than average stats to compensate for read access to it and b) it should target warrior models only.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 5, 2017 21:13:35 GMT
I honestly don't think that Cygnar and Trolls pay for their support pieces in their warnouns, since 12\18 30 boxes is essentially the average for that category of model. However, even if just as a thought experiment, do their infantry have the same average stat total? From what I can tell, I don't think they do. I think that, if anything in those factions is paying a stone\AS "tax," it is the infantry who are generally less tanky, and those that are (warders) are incredibly pillowfisted for their cost. If needed, assume stormlances don't exist for this comparison, as they are they seem to be the exception not the rule. I mean, you can pretend that Stormlances (or the Stormwall) don't exist for the purposes of comparison, but that comparison is effectively DOA, as those two model/units are the most common targets for Arcane Shield. A single target buff is incapable of shoring up a systemic weakness in a whole model type, especially when attached to an FA C model. People don't use AS to get Stormblades or Stormguard up to an 'acceptable' ARM value, they use it to make their already strong choices extremely difficult to remove. But again, if it's intended to be a fix for infantry, then a) storm lances should have lower than average stats to compensate for read access to it and b) it should target warrior models only. Again, Trollbloods Cavs have ARM 17 and still have the Stone. Uhlhans have 17 and have built-in Wall of Steel. Vengers have 17 and have built-in Battle-Driven. All them can also stack a caster buff over that if they have it (while Stormlances with AS can't stack even if the caster has it). I don't see particular problems with paying 4 points (and in general investing in a 13 point package) to get an ARM some Cavalry have built-in into their price. This is not to confront the cavs. The offensive capability of Lances are (or maybe were) a lot better, but they don't strike me as clearly advantaged on the defensive department even with AS factored in (and again, even considering just the JR and ignoring the burden of the jack, as package AS Stormlances cost 24, so that is not the problem). It is even less a problem now that Lances will probably see a big decrease in popularity following the nerf. On single jacks, again, I see no problems with AS. The only case where AS is really a bit too convenient is with Colossals, so at best I could see changing AS to be "Large base or smaller model/unit". Every change over that would penalyze Cygnar play too much imo.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 5, 2017 21:17:49 GMT
I honestly don't think that Cygnar and Trolls pay for their support pieces in their warnouns, since 12\18 30 boxes is essentially the average for that category of model. However, even if just as a thought experiment, do their infantry have the same average stat total? From what I can tell, I don't think they do. I think that, if anything in those factions is paying a stone\AS "tax," it is the infantry who are generally less tanky, and those that are (warders) are incredibly pillowfisted for their cost. If needed, assume stormlances don't exist for this comparison, as they are they seem to be the exception not the rule. I mean, you can pretend that Stormlances (or the Stormwall) don't exist for the purposes of comparison, but that comparison is effectively DOA, as those two model/units are the most common targets for Arcane Shield. A single target buff is incapable of shoring up a systemic weakness in a whole model type, especially when attached to an FA C model. People don't use AS to get Stormblades or Stormguard up to an 'acceptable' ARM value, they use it to make their already strong choices extremely difficult to remove. But again, if it's intended to be a fix for infantry, then a) storm lances should have lower than average stats to compensate for read access to it and b) it should target warrior models only. I use AS on Stormblades. During their minifeat, that puts them up to Arm 21. It often gets them delivered. Cygnar's Trenchers and Gun Mages don't want Arcane Shield. It does very little for their survivability. They'd prefer Blur or Snipe any day. Cygnar only has a few units that would conceptually want Arcane Shield. Storm Blades Storm Guard Silverline Storm Guard Storm Lances Sword Knights Precursors (But Spell Ward screws ya over there) But the Sword Knights rely more on defense and terrain to get to melee. Storm Guard are weak and awkward. Precursors can't use it. So it comes down to 2 units that legitimately might like to have Arcane Shield on them. Storm Lances and Storm Blades. AS is not a fix for Cygnaran infantry. It's a potent buff that we can apply where we want it. Put it on a heavy jack, put it on Thorn, put it on a Stormwall, or Storm nouns. Hell, put it on your caster.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 6, 2017 9:04:55 GMT
Perhaps but he'd be in line with all the juniors released after him. Perhaps the fact that all the juniors released after him have upkeeps of spells that only affect them and their BG says something about how PP looks at caster independent model/unit buffs.
I call attention to the fact that Jakes2 and the Trencher Journeyman have spells that increase threat range. That's really good, especially when they have the choice between 4 good light shooty warjacks.
Yes. Ignore that Jakes and Trencher Jr. have 4 focus and defensive tech. ... Junior has nothing to do with models of his model type. He's seperate in design intent, and has been that way from the beginning. Junior is an army support model. Jakes and Aikos and Horgle and Wrongeye, etc. are all self contained battlegroup modules designed with that intention.
3 Juniors all with unlimited acess to any warjack in the faction and a design intent to see them on the table (Something not present in the other factions. As evidenced by the general lack of presence on lists.). 4 shooty lights to complement them (Charger, Hunter, Grenadier, Firefly)... The same way that suddenly Cygnar seems to be the multi-BG faction going by the models released in the last few years the Junior also changed. He now HAS to take a warjack, it went from a liability to a mandatory feature.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 6, 2017 11:24:16 GMT
Yes. Ignore that Jakes and Trencher Jr. have 4 focus and defensive tech. ... Junior has nothing to do with models of his model type. He's seperate in design intent, and has been that way from the beginning. Junior is an army support model. Jakes and Aikos and Horgle and Wrongeye, etc. are all self contained battlegroup modules designed with that intention.
3 Juniors all with unlimited acess to any warjack in the faction and a design intent to see them on the table (Something not present in the other factions. As evidenced by the general lack of presence on lists.). 4 shooty lights to complement them (Charger, Hunter, Grenadier, Firefly)... The same way that suddenly Cygnar seems to be the multi-BG faction going by the models released in the last few years the Junior also changed. He now HAS to take a warjack, it went from a liability to a mandatory feature.
Fluffwise, the journeyman warcaster is the least experienced. Jakes and the TWL have both had more training. Junior has to take a warjack to learn with, but can't do much with it. He knows the most basic Cygnar spells (arcane shield, arcane bolt) and only has a little focus. So he gets to cast AS, try to fuel a warjack, and try not to die so he'll do better in the next fight. Jakes is already comfortable with warjacks. She has nice spells that help her and her jacks work together. And TWL has had Trencher training, so he digs in and runs some jacks from there. So, from a fluff standpoints, they're all journeymen of different talents and experience levels working under the tutelage of a real caster. Mechanically, Junior serves a very different role. He's a buff bot. His requirement to bring a shooty light (and excluding the lancer, there are only shooty lights in Cygnar) is a balancing factor for his low point cost. The oppurtunity cost for bringing a light jack (even the excellent charger) is significant. That jack could be in the main caster's bg, benefitting from bg buffs. Or those points could be spent elsewhere. This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 11:31:07 GMT
Fluffwise, the journeyman warcaster is the least experienced. Jakes and the TWL have both had more training. Junior has to take a warjack to learn with, but can't do much with it. He knows the most basic Cygnar spells (arcane shield, arcane bolt) and only has a little focus. So he gets to cast AS, try to fuel a warjack, and try not to die so he'll do better in the next fight. Jakes is already comfortable with warjacks. She has nice spells that help her and her jacks work together. And TWL has had Trencher training, so he digs in and runs some jacks from there. So, from a fluff standpoints, they're all journeymen of different talents and experience levels working under the tutelage of a real caster. Mechanically, Junior serves a very different role. He's a buff bot. His requirement to bring a shooty light (and excluding the lancer, there are only shooty lights in Cygnar) is a balancing factor for his low point cost. The oppurtunity cost for bringing a light jack (even the excellent charger) is significant. That jack could be in the main caster's bg, benefitting from bg buffs. Or those points could be spent elsewhere. This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out. Often it feels like only a positive.
With Haley2 in heavy metal for example for example he fuels the jack and upkeeps AS. He hands out extra focus every turn so his jack can be full. The jack almost never needs a BG buff as there are almost always better targets for Temporal Acceleration. He can still be Tk'd to taste. He still gets powerup, he still benefits 100% from the feat.
He is essentially never in danger and loses nothing. Yes he does have to buy a jack but between the Firefly and Charger he isn't short of good options.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 6, 2017 11:34:44 GMT
... This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out.
I cannot agree that having a jack a gun that you can fully fuel after keeping the upkeep in play is a weakness. It's 2 extra focus. He can take any jack with any role, seems obvious that he wants a ranged jack but he has all the choices, he can even take a colossal... Not the mark of the inexperienced and not entirely trusted...
He may be less than ideal on a BG centric caster but not all models are equal with every caser.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 6, 2017 11:35:24 GMT
Fluffwise, the journeyman warcaster is the least experienced. Jakes and the TWL have both had more training. Junior has to take a warjack to learn with, but can't do much with it. He knows the most basic Cygnar spells (arcane shield, arcane bolt) and only has a little focus. So he gets to cast AS, try to fuel a warjack, and try not to die so he'll do better in the next fight. Jakes is already comfortable with warjacks. She has nice spells that help her and her jacks work together. And TWL has had Trencher training, so he digs in and runs some jacks from there. So, from a fluff standpoints, they're all journeymen of different talents and experience levels working under the tutelage of a real caster. Mechanically, Junior serves a very different role. He's a buff bot. His requirement to bring a shooty light (and excluding the lancer, there are only shooty lights in Cygnar) is a balancing factor for his low point cost. The oppurtunity cost for bringing a light jack (even the excellent charger) is significant. That jack could be in the main caster's bg, benefitting from bg buffs. Or those points could be spent elsewhere. This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out. Often it feels like only a positive.
With Haley2 in heavy metal for example for example he fuels the jack and upkeeps AS. He hands out extra focus every turn so his jack can be full. The jack almost never needs a BG buff as there are almost always better targets for Temporal Acceleration. He can still be Tk'd to taste. He still gets powerup, he still benefits 100% from the feat.
He is essentially never in danger and loses nothing. Yes he does have to buy a jack but between the Firefly and Charger he isn't short of good options.
That makes it a wash, not really a positive. If not for AS, even if the list would have a light outside the caster's battlegroup it'd be on a novice instead of Junior.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 6, 2017 11:51:49 GMT
Fluffwise, the journeyman warcaster is the least experienced. Jakes and the TWL have both had more training. Junior has to take a warjack to learn with, but can't do much with it. He knows the most basic Cygnar spells (arcane shield, arcane bolt) and only has a little focus. So he gets to cast AS, try to fuel a warjack, and try not to die so he'll do better in the next fight. Jakes is already comfortable with warjacks. She has nice spells that help her and her jacks work together. And TWL has had Trencher training, so he digs in and runs some jacks from there. So, from a fluff standpoints, they're all journeymen of different talents and experience levels working under the tutelage of a real caster. Mechanically, Junior serves a very different role. He's a buff bot. His requirement to bring a shooty light (and excluding the lancer, there are only shooty lights in Cygnar) is a balancing factor for his low point cost. The oppurtunity cost for bringing a light jack (even the excellent charger) is significant. That jack could be in the main caster's bg, benefitting from bg buffs. Or those points could be spent elsewhere. This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out. Often it feels like only a positive.
With Haley2 in heavy metal for example for example he fuels the jack and upkeeps AS. He hands out extra focus every turn so his jack can be full. The jack almost never needs a BG buff as there are almost always better targets for Temporal Acceleration. He can still be Tk'd to taste. He still gets powerup, he still benefits 100% from the feat.
He is essentially never in danger and loses nothing. Yes he does have to buy a jack but between the Firefly and Charger he isn't short of good options.
True Haley 2 does not care too much, but there are plenty of other casters that want all the jacks on themselves
- Kraye - Darius - Nemo 2 - Caine 3 - Jakes 2 - Siege 1 - Sloan - Stryker 3
Also taking a Charger on junior is 9 points that could be upgraded to be another heavy on your caster, you might not particularly want light jacks in your list, but are obliged to take them to put something on Junior.
I am not saying this is some sort of massive hardship, but it is a factor to consider
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Post by dazzla on Jul 6, 2017 12:06:01 GMT
I am surprised about the amount of concern about the Junior warcaster. I am not saying that he isn't good, but at the end of the day he is only one model and can only have AS on one unit at a time. Other factions have different defensive tech.
In a post above it was observed that he has unlimited access to every warjack in faction. I think this is true for most of the junior warcasters. I play Menoth (in addition to Cygnar) and was not aware of any limitation on which jacks Tristan can take.
Junior can take a shooty light jack and stay out of range. So can Tristan.
Tristan can provide AS. Well, when I play Menoth I have a choice of nice support models that can provide benefits not available to Cygnar or any other faction for that matter.
The factions are different. That will mean Cygnar has some things that other factions do not have and other factions have things Cygnar does not have. However, IMO the game is now about as well balanced as I can remember - not perfect but very good given the difficulty of balancing games of this complexity (however, I would suggest Trolls need a bit of help). The list of recent tournament results on the Discount Games web site does not suggest that Cygnar is dominant, even with Junior.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 13:06:59 GMT
I lost a game I should have won tonight because my opponent could bulldoze a firefly on junior where if the firefly was on nemo 3 he couldn't.
Sometimes having jacks not be in your battlegroup sucks.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 6, 2017 13:12:27 GMT
I lost a game I should have won tonight because my opponent could bulldoze a firefly on junior where if the firefly was on nemo 3 he couldn't. Sometimes having jacks not be in your battlegroup sucks. But seemingly not enough to consider running a list without the Journeyman, 99% of the time.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 6, 2017 13:14:49 GMT
I lost a game I should have won tonight because my opponent could bulldoze a firefly on junior where if the firefly was on nemo 3 he couldn't. Sometimes having jacks not be in your battlegroup sucks. But seemingly not enough to consider running a list without the Journeyman, 99% of the time. Just like Harkevich is totally running 10 Marauders all the time plz nerf am I right ? Things aren't always the boogeyman you read about on the internet.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 6, 2017 13:15:59 GMT
... This isn't a complaint, but an explanation. Junior running a jack is not a bonus, it's a weakness that balances him out.
I cannot agree that having a jack a gun that you can fully fuel after keeping the upkeep in play is a weakness. It's 2 extra focus. He can take any jack with any role, seems obvious that he wants a ranged jack but he has all the choices, he can even take a colossal... Not the mark of the inexperienced and not entirely trusted...
He may be less than ideal on a BG centric caster but not all models are equal with every caser.
Guys, it's pretty simple to prove that the jack with a JR isn't a plus... In MK2 we could take only the JR, and 99,99% of the times Cygnar players taken the JR without the jack (the rule of the forced jack was added exactly because PP wanted JR to have a jack but noone taken it without being forced). That means that having the option, everyone felt more convenient spend the points on something else or put the jack directly on the caster. Being forced to take an option that is not ideal can't be a plus.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 6, 2017 13:18:54 GMT
I lost a game I should have won tonight because my opponent could bulldoze a firefly on junior where if the firefly was on nemo 3 he couldn't. Sometimes having jacks not be in your battlegroup sucks. But seemingly not enough to consider running a list without the Journeyman, 99% of the time. Irrelevant to the point. The idea that having Juniors to run Jacks as only being a net positive is false.
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