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Post by streetpizza on Jul 5, 2017 13:23:57 GMT
"toughest cavalry in the game" > storm lances with arcane shield, arm 20. >Uhlans with iron flesh, arm 21. Defender's warded Vengers after battle driven are 14/21 ... just saying.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 5, 2017 13:33:29 GMT
I brought up the Krielstone bearers because Oncomingstorm has consistently made the argument that Junior is not a balanced support model because our Jacks are not of lesser quality in the defense+armor sum than normal. Protectorate heavies have def 10, arm 19. Cygnar heavies have def 12, arm 18.
Oncomingstorm is convinced that the Protectorate Jacks having generally lower stats is what makes the choir acceptable. In part, that is true.
However, the choir push those jacks past those beginning weaknesses and beyond.
I then brought up the Krielstone because Dire Trolls have def 12, arm 18, and 30 boxes. Same as the Ironclad chassis.
Things I am NOT claiming: 1. Krielstone OP, pls nerf. 2. Trolls are fine and have no internal balance issues.
What I am claiming: Whether or not Junior is a balanced support piece cannot be determined just by looking at Cygnar Warjack stats.
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Post by flamigant on Jul 5, 2017 13:33:51 GMT
"toughest cavalry in the game" > storm lances with arcane shield, arm 20. >Uhlans with iron flesh, arm 21. Defender's warded Vengers after battle driven are 14/21 ... just saying. They are that after having survived a damage hit. Usually when you try to kill a model that expensive you better make sure it is dead. Battledriven is bollocks if you ask me. But still + 2 arm /str and Pathfinder are awsome ofcourse. And they also have the Lance rule....
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 5, 2017 13:36:12 GMT
Ok, so part of the reason I feel that this is such a hot topic is that the issue mainly lies with a few Very good Cygnar players. Cygnar are not, no matter what anyone else may think an Easy Win button, in fact I usually see people struggling when they first switch to the faction more than in other factions. This makes it a hugely different beast than Mk2 Cryx for example. The issue lies that Haley2 is a pretty beatable caster when played by most players, but her skill ceiling is so incredibly high. Once you've wracked up enough games with her she's almost unstoppable and at the top ends of this game everyone plays their main caster a lot. This means that most Cygnar nerfs would decimate the win percentage for the majority of players. It's also why many Cygnar players feel picked on as they don't experience the Godly power that Pat, Alastair or Jarle can wield. I think this is why PP want to change tokens on the table. They are attempting to bring down the maximum skill attainable with Cygnar without hurting the average player who doesn't use 10-15 proxy bases every turn to work out TK. Pat, Alastair and Jarle don't strike me as the kind of players that need to bust out a dozen proxy bases to play their Cygnar A-game. Premeasuring or token use restrictions don't really affect players that have mastered an alledged high skill ceiling faction. I'd also suggest Cygnar has several excellent, absolutely tournament-worthy casters that are quite a bit easier to pilot than a Haley. If players that aren't at the level described above would try their hand more at these casters, they might find themselves doing better as well. I'm not saying Cygnar needs any more nerfs, I'm really not, but a perceived high skill ceiling is not an argument against Cygnar nerfs. I mean Jarl specifically is the player that set up the petition over losing proxy bases. he uses them more than any other player. Pat hasn't used them a lot in the games I've played against him, but that might be because I haven't posed a significantly hard question where he needs one.
I didn't say that a high skill ceiling was a reason not to nerf. What I actually said was that, was the reason PP are having trouble nerfing the faction. It's something that needs consideration when considering what if anything should be done.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 5, 2017 13:42:55 GMT
That kinda sounds....arrogant?
"Cygnars not better, its players are just amazing get gud!"
Not saying you said that, it just feeds into this just sense of cygnarian bleh.
Sorta, dont take it personally.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 5, 2017 13:46:37 GMT
What I am claiming: Whether or not Junior is a balanced support piece cannot be determined just by looking at Cygnar Warjack stats. That is 100% correct and I agree with it.
I'm a Troll player and often see Troll players claim that Troll beasts have lower stats to make up for the stone. That is absolutely incorrect. 12/20 is insane as a state line and players of other factions rightly scratch their heads when Troll players claim it to be the case.
What the stone does do to trolls is several things. - Trolls never had armour buff spells in their faction. this has recently changed with Horgle 2, but was true for a very long time. - Trolls generally aren't allowed the alpha strike. Again this is untrue for Doomy2, but generally trolls play a slower counter punch game. - Trolls single wound infantry is generally low on armor. Fennblades are 14 and due to their speed are rarely in stone. Kriel Warriors are 15 with 1 inch Unyielding. If Trolls had Sentinels or Bane Knights the world might end. - Troll heavies will probably never have shields.
There are also several limitations like: - Trolls have to go first or risk not being able to fill the stone. No faction needs to go first as much as Trolls. - Troll warcasters are constanty filling their stone. this means less fury to spend on spells or attacks etc. - Troll armies are often very clumped to try and get everything in the stone.
These things are all taken into consideration with the faction just like The Junior's buff is taken into consideration with Cygnar. If arcane shield was Battlegroup only do we suddenly have an issue where Arm 17 Storm lances are too low arm? This is why none of us are game designers.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 13:58:21 GMT
That kinda sounds....arrogant? "Cygnars not better, its players are just amazing get gud!" Not saying you said that, it just feeds into this just sense of cygnarian bleh. Sorta, dont take it personally. Surprising that the faction that has a lot of tricks and control is harder to pilot than many other factions? How is that a surprise?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 14:01:51 GMT
What I am claiming: Whether or not Junior is a balanced support piece cannot be determined just by looking at Cygnar Warjack stats. That is 100% correct and I agree with it.
I'm a Troll player and often see Troll players claim that Troll beasts have lower stats to make up for the stone. That is absolutely incorrect. 12/20 is insane as a state line and players of other factions rightly scratch their heads when Troll players claim it to be the case.
What the stone does do to trolls is several things. - Trolls never had armour buff spells in their faction. this has recently changed with Horgle 2, but was true for a very long time. - Trolls generally aren't allowed the alpha strike. Again this is untrue for Doomy2, but generally trolls play a slower counter punch game. - Trolls single wound infantry is generally low on armor. Fennblades are 14 and due to their speed are rarely in stone. Kriel Warriors are 15 with 1 inch Unyielding. If Trolls had Sentinels or Bane Knights the world might end. - Troll heavies will probably never have shields.
There are also several limitations like: - Trolls have to go first or risk not being able to fill the stone. No faction needs to go first as much as Trolls. - Troll warcasters are constanty filling their stone. this means less fury to spend on spells or attacks etc. - Troll armies are often very clumped to try and get everything in the stone.
These things are all taken into consideration with the faction just like The Junior's buff is taken into consideration with Cygnar. If arcane shield was Battlegroup only do we suddenly have an issue where Arm 17 Storm lances are too low arm? This is why none of us are game designers.
If Arcane Shield was Battlegroup then Junior pretty much leaves competitive play entirely. Why run a warjack worse than your caster and leash it to a reasonably easy to kill model when it doesn't benefit your army? The Troll-stone comparison is an interesting one, but I think its pretty important that the Krielstone armour isn't magical. There are a bunch of factions where bringing arcane shield is mostly pointless due to access to blessed (and sometimes detrimental to use, such as Woldwyrds)
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 5, 2017 14:11:00 GMT
That kinda sounds....arrogant? "Cygnars not better, its players are just amazing get gud!" Not saying you said that, it just feeds into this just sense of cygnarian bleh. Sorta, dont take it personally. Is this in response to me?
I'm not entirely sure how you could make out any of that from what I said:
Firstly I can't be arrogant about Cygnar players when I don't and have never played them.
Cygnar players aren't better, but the faction rewards time investment more: I feel that two equally skilled players who played 350 games with Cygnar and another faction would end up doing better with Cygnar. That's due to a high skill ceiling. That doesn't even say Cygnar players are better. What it says is that at the very top level they are rewarded more than equally skilled players that have put the same amount of time in playing another faction.
The issue is that most of the nerfs would really hurt those cygnar players in the middle who already struggle with the faction.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 5, 2017 14:11:12 GMT
Can I make 1 observation real quick? Against the "we have less stats" position.
13/17 for Stormlances is perfectly average. Most non-infantry models add up their Defense and Armor to get 30. Vayl 15/15, Rhyas 16/14, Neraph/Seraph/Angelius 14/16 Thagrosh 2 12/18. and on and on. So I would put forth that things like the Carni chassis are "under" stat average since they are 11/18 = 29. Like the Crusader 10/19 is below average.
Typhon is "elite" because he's 31, 13/18. Same stats for Kallus 2. Thagrosh 1 is psuedo above average with the aura effect on top of 14/16. Warpwolves are elite at 14/17, Loki being more so 14/19. Karchev 12/19 and boxes for days.
So 12/18 on cygnar and trolls heavies seems perfectly average. I don't see a deficit imposed for access to a buff. It comes from other places as have been mentioned.
Now this is only a difference of a single point or so. it's not the end of the world. Other rules factor in of course (people's hatred of "vacuums"). But looking at the numbers, the evidence is there. not to mention how defense can block more damage than arm by preventing a damage roll altogether.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 5, 2017 14:51:39 GMT
If Arcane Shield was Battlegroup then Junior pretty much leaves competitive play entirely. Why run a warjack worse than your caster and leash it to a reasonably easy to kill model when it doesn't benefit your army? The Troll-stone comparison is an interesting one, but I think its pretty important that the Krielstone armour isn't magical. There are a bunch of factions where bringing arcane shield is mostly pointless due to access to blessed (and sometimes detrimental to use, such as Woldwyrds)
Perhaps but he'd be in line with all the juniors released after him. Perhaps the fact that all the juniors released after him have upkeeps of spells that only affect them and their BG says something about how PP looks at caster independent model/unit buffs.
I call attention to the fact that Jakes2 and the Trencher Journeyman have spells that increase threat range. That's really good, especially when they have the choice between 4 good light shooty warjacks.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 5, 2017 15:31:29 GMT
If Arcane Shield was Battlegroup then Junior pretty much leaves competitive play entirely. Why run a warjack worse than your caster and leash it to a reasonably easy to kill model when it doesn't benefit your army? The Troll-stone comparison is an interesting one, but I think its pretty important that the Krielstone armour isn't magical. There are a bunch of factions where bringing arcane shield is mostly pointless due to access to blessed (and sometimes detrimental to use, such as Woldwyrds)
Perhaps but he'd be in line with all the juniors released after him. Perhaps the fact that all the juniors released after him have upkeeps of spells that only affect them and their BG says something about how PP looks at caster independent model/unit buffs.
I call attention to the fact that Jakes2 and the Trencher Journeyman have spells that increase threat range. That's really good, especially when they have the choice between 4 good light shooty warjacks.
Yes. Ignore that Jakes and Trencher Jr. have 4 focus and defensive tech. Jakes has def 15 arm 13, which is generally better for a solo. Any attack that hits will do enough damage to kill, so it's better to just not get hit. Sidekick is a much better battlegroup spell than Arcane Shield because it grants bonuses to both the Jack and Caster. Jakes gets to be def 17 behind an immovable warjack. She actually has a kit that lets her be a decent combat solo while running a melee heavy. Energizer is great as well. Trencher Jr. has dig in and 8" control. He can pretty happily run several shooty jacks happy as a clam. Junior is not the same thing as other journeyman casters. He has the battlegroup controller requirement as a tax. He is in no way built to run any jacks other than the most focus efficient lights. And they'd much rather be on a real caster or a journeyman with greater control. Junior is a buff bot with a built in tax to help balance him out. History Lesson: The original Journeyman Warcaster was released in 2003 in Warmachine Prime. Back when there were 4 factions. Junior was Cygnar's first solo. The fluff section in prime describes giving the journeyman a warjack as a massive liability, although a necessary one. He had arcane shield, arcane bolt, and a disruption spell. He did not have to control a warjack, but was able to. In 2014, eleven years later, Warmachine Tactics was released. A video game that hoped to capture the feel of the tabletop war game. (It's not that great, but there's a actually a steam summer sale for it. $5 for the standard game, ends in like 2 hours.) The campaign centered around Lt. Allison Jakes, a Cygnaran Journeyman warcaster, and her adventure through the Iron Kingdoms. Released for the tabletop WMH were Journeyman casters for all of the WM factions (except C.O.C ). The idea behind the journeymen were clearly more battlegroup oriented. And that trend is mirrored in Hordes factions. Junior has nothing to do with models of his model type. He's seperate in design intent, and has been that way from the beginning. Junior is an army support model. Jakes and Aikos and Horgle and Wrongeye, etc. are all self contained battlegroup modules designed with that intention.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 5, 2017 19:24:34 GMT
Pat, Alastair and Jarle don't strike me as the kind of players that need to bust out a dozen proxy bases to play their Cygnar A-game. Premeasuring or token use restrictions don't really affect players that have mastered an alledged high skill ceiling faction. I'd also suggest Cygnar has several excellent, absolutely tournament-worthy casters that are quite a bit easier to pilot than a Haley. If players that aren't at the level described above would try their hand more at these casters, they might find themselves doing better as well. I'm not saying Cygnar needs any more nerfs, I'm really not, but a perceived high skill ceiling is not an argument against Cygnar nerfs. I mean Jarl specifically is the player that set up the petition over losing proxy bases. he uses them more than any other player. Pat hasn't used them a lot in the games I've played against him, but that might be because I haven't posed a significantly hard question where he needs one.
I didn't say that a high skill ceiling was a reason not to nerf. What I actually said was that, was the reason PP are having trouble nerfing the faction. It's something that needs consideration when considering what if anything should be done.
There's a big difference between doing something because you can and doing something because you have to. I doubt Jarle wil turn out to be a much less skilled player with a marker restriction in place.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 5, 2017 20:09:23 GMT
I honestly don't think that Cygnar and Trolls pay for their support pieces in their warnouns, since 12\18 30 boxes is essentially the average for that category of model. However, even if just as a thought experiment, do their infantry have the same average stat total? From what I can tell, I don't think they do. I think that, if anything in those factions is paying a stone\AS "tax," it is the infantry who are generally less tanky, and those that are (warders) are incredibly pillowfisted for their cost. If needed, assume stormlances don't exist for this comparison, as they are they seem to be the exception not the rule.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 5, 2017 20:43:28 GMT
Swampmist
Cygnar Infantry/Def+Arm: Gun Mages/24 B13/24 Field Mechanics/23 Long Gunners/24 Precursors/27 Rangers/25 Silverline/27 Storm Lanes/30 Storm Blades/27 Storm Guard/27 Stormsmith Grenadiers/24 Stormtower/24 Sword Knights/27 Tempest Blazers/27 Trencher Cannon/26 Trencher Chaingun/26 Trencher Commandos/26 Trencher Infantry/26
Arm+Def: # 23: 1 24: 5 25: 1 26: 4 27: 6 28: 0 29: 0 30: 1
Trollbloods Infantry/Def+Arm: Dhunian Knot/26 Kriel Warriors/27 Krielstone Bearers/25 Northkin Fire Eaters/26 Pummeler Crew/26 Pyg Burrowers/25 Pyg Bushwhackers/25 Scattergunners/26 Sons of Bragg/28 Thumper Crew/26 Champions/28 Fennblades/26 Highwaymen/27 Long Riders/29 Runeshapers/27 Scouts/26 Sluggers/27 Warders/29
Arm+Def: # 23: 0 24: 0 25: 3 26: 7 27: 4 28: 2 29: 2 30: 0
Yeah, I don't think there's much info to be drawn from this. There's too many factors outside of this.
The rule of 30 is a nice rule of thumb to go by for quality of stuff. But it is really not the best way to determine balance.
Edit: Yup. The sum of defense and armor mean nothing in the grand scheme of balance. I figured some averages. Both Cygnar and Trolls have 18 units (interesting).
By average of median, the average Cygnar unit and the average Troll unit both have a sum of defense and armor of 26. The mean average Cygnar Unit has a sum of defense and armor of 25.778. The mean average Trollbloods Unit has a sum of defense and armor of 26.6111.
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