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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 13:23:56 GMT
The sword knight CA gives cma and repo3. They have enough utility. They don't need more. Heck, I'd love cleave or overtake. You want Cleave or Overtake on models with 1 inch melee?
That seems like a CA that would never get taken.
It's already never taken. I'd find cleave and overtake preferable to repo3 and cma is all. Often only a few sword knights actually get delivered. It would be nice if each could dish out a couple of attacks. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 13:24:33 GMT
- Abbot and Champion 6pts - Archer officer and ammo porter 5pts - Farilor and standard bearer 6pts - Bayal hound of everblight 6pts - Warspear chieften 5pts - Anyssa Ryvaal (vet leader) 8pts - Warmonger Warcief (vet leader) 6pts Also why does defensive line not work against ranged? I'm being honestly curious. Wall of steel works whenever base to base. I figured they were the same. It's just built into the rule. While b2b with another member of the unit, they get +2 def against melee and cannot be knocked down. Ah... so it's not perfect. Doesn't mean it's bad. Which I'm not trying to be mean but that Sounds like Octavius' issue with them. No matter how much better than other factions' equivalent or average, it's not the best it could be. When your perspective is shaped solely by having the best of the best, anything else looks like trash. Where as my legion perception is shaped by below-average, everything else looks better (except circle infantry. they're one rung lower on the ladder) So I say sword knights are perfectly average models that can either fulfill a simple jamming role, or with a small dedication of "I wanted to engage with this Jack anyway" can be rather scary. (I have to pop feat on a caster to get Flank [warbeast] with way more expensive warbeast and more expensive infantry) |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 13:27:51 GMT
The sword knight CA gives cma and repo3. They have enough utility. They don't need more. Heck, I'd love cleave or overtake. You want Cleave or Overtake on models with 1 inch melee?
That seems like a CA that would never get taken.
I specifically take the Abbot and Champion ua for Swordsmen for that exact rule, on a 1" reach unit. I need the utility because swordsmen by themselves are BLANK cards. No eyeless sight. no pathfinder. no cma. no powerful charge. Not a single rule outside of weapon master... for a 10/16 unit. Also Abbot is a 6pt character UA with no mini feat. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 20, 2017 14:16:48 GMT
To be fair the Swordsmen UA,non-character btw, are half combot solos half unit buffers. I think people might actually be referring to the ExemplarBTW,
A better comparison would be Sword Knights+UA to Legionnaires.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 14:29:40 GMT
It's just built into the rule. While b2b with another member of the unit, they get +2 def against melee and cannot be knocked down. Ah... so it's not perfect. Doesn't mean it's bad. Which I'm not trying to be mean but that Sounds like Octavius' issue with them. No matter how much better than other factions' equivalent or average, it's not the best it could be. When your perspective is shaped solely by having the best of the best, anything else looks like trash. Where as my legion perception is shaped by below-average, everything else looks better (except circle infantry. they're one rung lower on the ladder) So I say sword knights are perfectly average models that can either fulfill a simple jamming role, or with a small dedication of "I wanted to engage with this Jack anyway" can be rather scary. (I have to pop feat on a caster to get Flank [warbeast] with way more expensive warbeast and more expensive infantry) I don't have a problem with the knight unit itself. The CA just doesn't mesh with them too well. Right now the only way I can reasonably run them is in 2 max units because it maximizes bodies for points. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 20, 2017 16:55:26 GMT
Well, I can say that I've gotten good work out of them with a number of casters - Stryker2 is the obvious choice, but they REALLY don't need the laundry list of buffs Stormsmith Dropout listed to get work done - most of the time they just need some way to not die to shooting. Out of theme (which admittedly, Octavius thinks is heresy) Rhupert makes them DEF 15. Blur, Deflection, Foxhole - all give ways to deliver them (or at least force the opponent to engage them in melee.) Haley3 makes them DEF 17 in melee, 15 against shooting. And with minimal setup, they're MAT 8 Pow 10 weaponmasters, for 13 points. Hell, they're not even that easy to kill at range - def 13 isn't terrible for infantry, and 13/14 is usually more survivable than 12/15 for stormblades. My Circle would kill for sword knights, even without a viable UA. This is ABSOLUTELY a case of 'storm lance privilege.' |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 17:55:23 GMT
Okay, you don't need my particular laundry list of buffs, but your list is full of pretty major investments as well. Running out of theme and taking extra solos to buff them means they are no longer cheap. And putting a warjack on target isn't "minimal setup". At the least it means they aren't a 13 point package anymore.
Now, I quite like Sword Knights. But I am allowed to note that their CA is less than ideal. And that's the point of the CID. It's not Cygnar's turn anymore, and I am perfectly content and happy with the results of the Gravediggers round. I hope that whoever gets the next round receives some buffs to their weak stuff.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 20, 2017 17:58:03 GMT
It's pretty well accepted that Stormlances need to get nerfed and Sword knights need a buff. Sword Knights aren't bad, but they're not great. And of course Stormlances are ZOMG!!!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 20, 2017 18:12:39 GMT
It's pretty well accepted that Stormlances need to get nerfed And they still remain as some of the best (If not the best) Cavalry in the game. A reminder that even in nerfing they got a buff. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 20, 2017 18:16:44 GMT
Sword knights (the base unit) are fine. 100% fine. Their CA is anti-synergistic, and when Cygnar CID comes around again (in a year or so, I presume) then hopefully that gets changed up. However, Octavius' assertion that they are 'just bad' is 'just wrong.' Stormsmith Dropout: they don't 'need' Rhupert, but it's one non-caster specific buff to make them more survivable, and I'd argue that Rhupert is already a decent argument for running out of theme (not a strong ENOUGH argument on his own, generally, given the power level of Heavy Metal/Storm Division) but a consideration if there are other synergies you want to access. Similarly, my point was that there are lots of of ways to make them either highly survivable or extremely dangerous, and that they're not restricted to one caster. And getting a jack on the target is NOT a huge investment - it's no more of a 'cost' than getting dark shroud/scything touch on a target you want to hit with something else. It's a synergy, and one that's under the control of the Cygnar player to turn on more or less at will. |
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 20, 2017 19:14:21 GMT
Again, those free points are in solos, CA, and weapon crews that tend to be over-costed otherwise. Turns out anything is good at 0pts, even Stannis Brocker. And let's not forget there are factions who lost the theme force lottery, who either have to pay the listed cost for their solos or do without. The correct solution would have been to fix point costs, not use themes as a band-aid or bribe. But like I said, cat's out the bag, and everyone who plays factions with good themes is too used to getting free stuff as a reward for playing their best lists now. It's a moot point. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 20, 2017 19:24:36 GMT
The correct solution would have been to fix point costs, not use themes as a band-aid or bribe. I actually think Most solos are fine. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 19:26:48 GMT
Again, those free points are in solos, CA, and weapon crews that tend to be over-costed otherwise. Turns out anything is good at 0pts, even Stannis Brocker. The correct solution would have been to fix point costs, not use themes as a band-aid or bribe. But like I said, cat's out the bag, and everyone who plays factions with good themes is too used to getting free stuff as a reward for playing their best lists now. It's a moot point. I've got Gators with no posse, Legion, Cryx, and Circle. What faction are you playing that has no good theme? If you say convergence then I'm sorry you can't understand how that many free bodies, shield guards, and tons of armor+box is a bad deal. I will concede I know nothing of Mercs, much less their theme list. But that's only one out of 12(?) factions. that's hardly a catastrophe it's being made out to be. Wait for CID like every one else. It is not a moot point. Agreeing with injustice for the sake of "oh well it already happened" solves nothing. The CID exists to correct that exact thing. Being passive aggressive towards anyone you deem to have "better toys" than you is a moot point. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 21:34:47 GMT
I think every unit should be a compelling choice. Sword knights are not a compelling choice. Consider that while they are "cheap" they have one of the worst statline for a strictly melee unit on the game (mat 6, pow 10). They have flank Warjack, but at that point you have needed a Warjack to go into melee with the target (and not kill it itself) and then get a number of sword knights in. When that is required are they really so cheap?
On the offensive they have a high ceiling and a low average, compounded by their defenses at range being extremely susceptible to dying without any of the Minifeats which are often used to get models into melee.
So they require a lot of support (requiring help to survive and also to kill) and are mostly helpless without that support. They are ok when being charged by infantry and heavies, but that really isn't a huge concern for me.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 20, 2017 22:01:22 GMT
I think every unit should be a compelling choice. Sword knights are not a compelling choice. Consider that while they are "cheap" they have one of the worst statline for a strictly melee unit on the game (mat 6, pow 10). They have flank Warjack, but at that point you have needed a Warjack to go into melee with the target (and not kill it itself) and then get a number of sword knights in. When that is required are they really so cheap? I mean those stats are better than Kriel Warriors. Mat 5, Pow 10. |
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