|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 5:55:38 GMT
Haley 2 has a Field Marshal and all of her abilities affect single models and battlegroup models. She's 100% a Battlegroup Caster. Also, in general the 4th Solo in Heavy Metal usually isn't valuable. It goes: - Squire - Junior - Arlan -...Jakes? Or Trencher Junior? Or Runewood? A lot of casters who play Heavy Metal want to keep their jacks in battlegroup so Jakes and Trencher Junior are sometimes there, but usually not. So that means you could run 75 points of Jacks without losing too much and that gives you access to...Sword Knights. Sword Knights are terrible, guys. They are really really bad. Here is the problem, though, a pair of Sword Knight units is 26 points...exactly 1 point over the threshold of 75 points (as there are no Cygnar casters with more than +30 WJP) meaning that to run 2 units of Sword Knights you need to lose 2 Free Solos which is no Bueno. Also, if you want to run Sword Knights...the Solo you often want to bring is Runewood, which is the solo you are bringing units to avoid taking. You could choose to lose...Arlan? But Arlan is really good with the 75 points of warjacks you are bringing. So Sword Knights are bad and their free points math is bad. If Heavy Metal had non-battlegroup models worth a damn then taking less free points for them I could see, but it just isn't worth it. by what metric are sword knights bad? I've used them to great effect (not two units, usually, I'll admit, but still.) They have Mat 6 (8 if they're flanking, which is ludicrously easy to set up in heavy metal.) They're conditional weaponmasters (again, with an easy to set up condition.) They have defensive line, which makes them a pain to shift in melee. They have one weakness, which is that they're relatively easy to shoot (though Def 13 isn't nothing) and if you play them with either Rhupert (admittedly, out of theme) or a caster with blur or deflection, they're reasonably hard to shift. They're an excellent screen for a warjack heavy list, because they represent a difficult to remove (except by shooting, if you haven't closed that weakness) unit that can blunt an alpha against lower model count lists, fill zones, and keep enemy models off your shooting units. They also can't be ignored, because with flank they become a credible threat against almost any target in the game.
The problem I see (and I think many Cygnar players suffer from) is twofold: 1. You're expecting way, way, waaaaay too much from an 8/13 unit. 2. They aren't Stormlances. If they have an issue I'd like to see fixed, it's that their CA doesn't do a ton for them, but the core unit is a very effective package for providing heavy metal with a credible scenario presence and upping the body count. But by no metric are sword knights an objectively bad unit. Their weakness is that they die to any list built with the slightest ability to handle infantry and that they have a short threat that doesn't do anything unless your opponent gives you them a charge and a jack. They are bad.
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on Jun 20, 2017 11:39:23 GMT
by what metric are sword knights bad? I've used them to great effect (not two units, usually, I'll admit, but still.) They have Mat 6 (8 if they're flanking, which is ludicrously easy to set up in heavy metal.) They're conditional weaponmasters (again, with an easy to set up condition.) They have defensive line, which makes them a pain to shift in melee. They have one weakness, which is that they're relatively easy to shoot (though Def 13 isn't nothing) and if you play them with either Rhupert (admittedly, out of theme) or a caster with blur or deflection, they're reasonably hard to shift. They're an excellent screen for a warjack heavy list, because they represent a difficult to remove (except by shooting, if you haven't closed that weakness) unit that can blunt an alpha against lower model count lists, fill zones, and keep enemy models off your shooting units. They also can't be ignored, because with flank they become a credible threat against almost any target in the game.
The problem I see (and I think many Cygnar players suffer from) is twofold: 1. You're expecting way, way, waaaaay too much from an 8/13 unit. 2. They aren't Stormlances. If they have an issue I'd like to see fixed, it's that their CA doesn't do a ton for them, but the core unit is a very effective package for providing heavy metal with a credible scenario presence and upping the body count. But by no metric are sword knights an objectively bad unit. Their weakness is that they die to any list built with the slightest ability to handle infantry and that they have a short threat that doesn't do anything unless your opponent gives you them a charge and a jack. They are bad. People play lists built with the ability to handle infantry into Heavy Metal nowadays? That doesn't sound like the worst thing that can happen for the Cygnar player.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 12:27:52 GMT
Their weakness is that they die to any list built with the slightest ability to handle infantry and that they have a short threat that doesn't do anything unless your opponent gives you them a charge and a jack. They are bad. People play lists built with the ability to handle infantry into Heavy Metal nowadays? That doesn't sound like the worst thing that can happen for the Cygnar player. Bringing rifle Corps or just having a caster that kills many infantry themselves isn't a big loss.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 12:28:43 GMT
Okay, so the only reason I have found it somewhat compelling to run sword knights is that Stryker2 fixes as many of their problems as possible.
He can up their armor against shooting by a bit. With his feat, they can threaten 16". He can make them hit hard. Pow 12 weaponmaster is nice. He can make them accurate. Up to Mat 11. Rebuke can help them get the alpha, or give them a chance against shield wall units.
However, they still take a lot of work to set up any of that. They die really easy (really easy) to any kind of infantry killing tech. Their only really virtue is that they are somewhat cheap.
A sword knight is 1.3 points. But if I bring the CA, they all become about 1.42 points. A significant increase in cost, for repo 3, and cma. They don't need either of those in my experience. They need some sort of defensive tech. I'd take a variant of blade shield that affects armor, and a mini feat that gives dodge.
Anyway, if sword knights were a bit more appealing, I'd take them with several casters.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 12:45:36 GMT
by what metric are sword knights bad? I've used them to great effect (not two units, usually, I'll admit, but still.) They have Mat 6 (8 if they're flanking, which is ludicrously easy to set up in heavy metal.) They're conditional weaponmasters (again, with an easy to set up condition.) They have defensive line, which makes them a pain to shift in melee. They have one weakness, which is that they're relatively easy to shoot (though Def 13 isn't nothing) and if you play them with either Rhupert (admittedly, out of theme) or a caster with blur or deflection, they're reasonably hard to shift. They're an excellent screen for a warjack heavy list, because they represent a difficult to remove (except by shooting, if you haven't closed that weakness) unit that can blunt an alpha against lower model count lists, fill zones, and keep enemy models off your shooting units. They also can't be ignored, because with flank they become a credible threat against almost any target in the game.
The problem I see (and I think many Cygnar players suffer from) is twofold: 1. You're expecting way, way, waaaaay too much from an 8/13 unit. 2. They aren't Stormlances. If they have an issue I'd like to see fixed, it's that their CA doesn't do a ton for them, but the core unit is a very effective package for providing heavy metal with a credible scenario presence and upping the body count. But by no metric are sword knights an objectively bad unit. Their weakness is that they die to any list built with the slightest ability to handle infantry and that they have a short threat that doesn't do anything unless your opponent gives you them a charge and a jack. They are bad. So an infantry unit dies to anti-infantry tech? Come on. 8/13 is dirt cheap. The only way you get anything cheaper in melee is Wolves of Orboros and you're looking at PS9 without the sword kinight's Flank. If they want to be weapon master for 1 turn you have to take the UA. Sword knights have a great range of abilities on their card that I wish Legion models would even get close to. Also shooting isn't really as big a threat with Defensive line. Def 15 all the time is pretty nice (Unless that rule specifies something different. But I believe it works like wall of steel) Their UA is cheap and NOT a character like some factions... Looking at you Farilor. Now, are they less good compared to Storm lances and jack spam? Yes. But just because everything else is pure gold doesn't mean a solid silver medal is a loser.
|
|
|
Post by pangurban on Jun 20, 2017 12:48:36 GMT
People play lists built with the ability to handle infantry into Heavy Metal nowadays? That doesn't sound like the worst thing that can happen for the Cygnar player. Bringing rifle Corps or just having a caster that kills many infantry themselves isn't a big loss. Just going to point out this is hardly the standard situation. Not every faction has a Rifle Corps-like unit, not every caster suited to leading an army that can crack armor well can also remove mass infantry from safety. If you're looking for a fullproof answer here, you're looking at the wrong game. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 12:51:51 GMT
Their weakness is that they die to any list built with the slightest ability to handle infantry and that they have a short threat that doesn't do anything unless your opponent gives you them a charge and a jack. They are bad. So an infantry unit dies to anti-infantry tech? Come on. 8/13 is dirt cheap. The only way you get anything cheaper in melee is Wolves of Orboros and you're looking at PS9 without the sword kinight's Flank. If you want to be weapon master for 1 turn you have to take the UA. Sword knights have a great range of abilities on their card that I wish Legion models would even get close to. Also shooting isn't really as big a threat with Defensive line. Def 15 all the time is pretty nice (Unless that rule specifies something different. But I believe it works like wall of steel) Their UA is cheap and NOT a character like some factions... Looking at you Farilor. Now, are they less good compared to Storm lances and jack spam? Yes. But just because everything else is pure gold doesn't mean a solid silver medal is a loser. Defensive Line doesn't work from range. Their UA is 4 points, which isn't cheap, its average, and provides nothing of value to the unit. No, this isn't a "Storm Lances are better" problem, this is a "They suck" problem.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 12:55:53 GMT
Bringing rifle Corps or just having a caster that kills many infantry themselves isn't a big loss. Just going to point out this is hardly the standard situation. Not every faction has a Rifle Corps-like unit, not every caster suited to leading an army that can crack armor well can also remove mass infantry from safety. If you're looking for a fullproof answer here, you're looking at the wrong game. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. In the last few games I played: 1. Rifle Corps with Hand of Fate 2. Sorscha 1 with Rifle Corps and a bunch of snipers 3. Makeda with a bunch of Dodge-cats (you need flank to hit and kill a cat and then she cancels it) 4. Vayl 2 in Oracles (nothing specific, although Carnivean and Hellion sprays really hurt them with Icy grip up). You can say "They aren't good at everything" and I agree, but an anti armour infantry unit that requires support from a jack to do their primary job and loses to any kind of anti infantry is not a recipe for a unit that I want to bring. Their base unit is fine, tbh, 13 points is fine but they need something else to make them worth delivering or to make it easier for them to deliver and I put that onto the failure of a UA that they have.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 20, 2017 12:59:24 GMT
Whats so sucky about them thats not sucky about the great bears for instance?
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Jun 20, 2017 13:03:22 GMT
Defensive Line doesn't work from range. Their UA is 4 points, which isn't cheap, its average, and provides nothing of value to the unit. No, this isn't a "Storm Lances are better" problem, this is a "They suck" problem. Seeing a Cygnar player state 4 points is average for a CA really drives home how overpriced Trolls are compared to Warmachine. I used to think it was just the beasts but Troll UA's - Skaldi - 5 points - Fennblades UA - 5 Points - Bushwacker UA 5 points Wish we had Defensive Line on a UA for 4 points.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 13:08:58 GMT
Okay, so the only reason I have found it somewhat compelling to run sword knights is that Stryker2 fixes as many of their problems as possible. He can up their armor against shooting by a bit. With his feat, they can threaten 16". He can make them hit hard. Pow 12 weaponmaster is nice. He can make them accurate. Up to Mat 11. Rebuke can help them get the alpha, or give them a chance against shield wall units. However, they still take a lot of work to set up any of that. They die really easy (really easy) to any kind of infantry killing tech. Their only really virtue is that they are somewhat cheap. A sword knight is 1.3 points. But if I bring the CA, they all become about 1.42 points. A significant increase in cost, for repo 3, and cma. They don't need either of those in my experience. They need some sort of defensive tech. I'd take a variant of blade shield that affects armor, and a mini feat that gives dodge. Anyway, if sword knights were a bit more appealing, I'd take them with several casters. Legion's average defense on infantry is 13/11. Our "good" infantry is either 14/13 or 15/11. Sword knights are plenty survivable at 15/13 Repo and CMA do seem lackluster on a unit you want to have flank with. But as is the trend in Legion at least; UAs add utility instead of straight power. Repo 3 and CMA lets them function different and without relying on flank. It's just giving them a secondary purpose. Like Cleave+Overtake on Swordsmen UA.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 13:13:59 GMT
The sword knight CA gives cma and repo3.
They have enough utility. They don't need more. Heck, I'd love cleave or overtake.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 13:14:54 GMT
Defensive Line doesn't work from range. Their UA is 4 points, which isn't cheap, its average, and provides nothing of value to the unit. No, this isn't a "Storm Lances are better" problem, this is a "They suck" problem. Seeing a Cygnar player state 4 points is average for a CA really drives home how overpriced Trolls are compared to Warmachine. I used to think it was just the beasts but Troll UA's - Skaldi - 5 points - Fennblades UA - 5 Points - Bushwacker UA 5 points Wish we had Defensive Line on a UA for 4 points. - Abbot and Champion 6pts - Archer officer and ammo porter 5pts - Farilor and standard bearer 6pts - Bayal hound of everblight 6pts - Warspear chieften 5pts - Anyssa Ryvaal (vet leader) 8pts - Warmonger Warcief (vet leader) 6pts Also why does defensive line not work against ranged? I'm being honestly curious. Wall of steel works whenever base to base. I figured they were the same.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 13:17:00 GMT
Seeing a Cygnar player state 4 points is average for a CA really drives home how overpriced Trolls are compared to Warmachine. I used to think it was just the beasts but Troll UA's - Skaldi - 5 points - Fennblades UA - 5 Points - Bushwacker UA 5 points Wish we had Defensive Line on a UA for 4 points. - Abbot and Champion 6pts - Archer officer and ammo porter 5pts - Farilor and standard bearer 6pts - Bayal hound of everblight 6pts - Warspear chieften 5pts - Anyssa Ryvaal (vet leader) 8pts - Warmonger Warcief (vet leader) 6pts Also why does defensive line not work against ranged? I'm being honestly curious. Wall of steel works whenever base to base. I figured they were the same. It's just built into the rule. While b2b with another member of the unit, they get +2 def against melee and cannot be knocked down.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Jun 20, 2017 13:19:56 GMT
The sword knight CA gives cma and repo3. They have enough utility. They don't need more. Heck, I'd love cleave or overtake. You want Cleave or Overtake on models with 1 inch melee?
That seems like a CA that would never get taken.
|
|