Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 19, 2017 9:35:31 GMT
Hi,
My name is James and I blog once a week about Trolls. The recent thread and anti Theme sentiment convinced me to take a week away from my Dhunian Brothers and look at Themes and why it's not as bad as people are saying,
If you take time to read it, thanks and any CnC is always welcome.
Article
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Post by pangurban on Jun 19, 2017 11:28:27 GMT
"... because everyone else plays in theme, [Haley2] has to as well." & "The truth is that PP stated they want about 50% of lists to be in theme. Themes are way too powerful for that to be the case. Themes will dominate the game, unless you give us a compelling reason not to play in themes."
I like and agree with most of your other remarks, but not the above. Themes in general are not too powerful. In fact, arguably more themes are a little on the underpowered side than the opposite, and the ones that are overpowered tend to be so in significant part due to the models in them being a little too good to begin with: you touched on this is your paragraph about spam. Even something like Oracles is not too strong, but Oracles in a fairly specific Fyanna2 setup probably is - that's it, pretty much two iterations of that list and all with the same caster. Mainly because Legion is a bit aenemic as a faction: give them some blighted 'roids and we might be having a different conversation, but PP seems disinclined to do that. I do expect a lot of models to go through CID in combination with relevant themes in a relatively short period of time, but not - quite critical for Legion, but also other Hordes factions - a lot of beasts. I don't think there will be general changes to the Fury system either. Yet those exact two things would be the fastest way to nudge Hordes factions in the right direction and prop up model diversity. However, I'm digressing: my point here is that there is no systemic issue with themes. Themes are not overly powerful for the sole reason that they are themes, as proven by the majority of them that are not too powerful. With new themes having to be vetted first via CID, I have good hope that the handful or so that could use a touch-up will remain the only ones in that category. Furthermore, since the models such a new theme would be intended for will also go through CID at the same time we can hope PP doesn't intend to prop up bad models only by making them better in theme: Banes got improved a little regardless of whether you play them in theme or not as well. My remaining issues are that I doubt anything will be done about the pre-CID themes (and the corresponding models) any time soon, whether it'd be a buff or a nerf, as well as being fairly sure that if beasts or jacks as a category get the CID treatment at some point, it won't be until absolutely everything else had a go first.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 11:34:53 GMT
Amen. Maybe I might have minor quibbles but it's a great example. Everybody DID just used to take ruin ruin ruin in Khador, and it got all samey.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 11:41:16 GMT
Completely disagree with this assessment
"Theme Lists remove the Creativity of List Building
Some of this is covered in the previous fallacy, but list building is more interesting that it has ever been."
You then cite Heavy Metal as an example of an interesting list building experience because Ironclads and Hammersmith's are being considered now, sorry but that is completely false. I play exclusively Heavy Metal at the moment, choosing 100+ points of jacks to get my 4 free solos is not exciting or creative in the slightest.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 19, 2017 12:36:32 GMT
Completely disagree with this assessment "Theme Lists remove the Creativity of List Building Some of this is covered in the previous fallacy, but list building is more interesting that it has ever been." You then cite Heavy Metal as an example of an interesting list building experience because Ironclads and Hammersmith's are being considered now, sorry but that is completely false. I play exclusively Heavy Metal at the moment, choosing 100+ points of jacks to get my 4 free solos is not exciting or creative in the slightest. And yet many of the best Cygnar players in Europe are running lists in Storm Division, Sons of Tempest or not in theme at all.
Just because you choose to run both lists in HM doesn't mean that's the only way to play.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 12:39:37 GMT
Completely disagree with this assessment "Theme Lists remove the Creativity of List Building Some of this is covered in the previous fallacy, but list building is more interesting that it has ever been." You then cite Heavy Metal as an example of an interesting list building experience because Ironclads and Hammersmith's are being considered now, sorry but that is completely false. I play exclusively Heavy Metal at the moment, choosing 100+ points of jacks to get my 4 free solos is not exciting or creative in the slightest. And yet many of the best Cygnar players in Europe are running lists in Storm Division or not in theme at all.
Just because you choose to run both lists in HM doesn't mean that's the only way to play.
I was not stating that they are the only way to play, or that Heavy Metal is the only good theme in Cygnar. I was disagreeing with the statement that Heavy Metal can be a creative or exciting way of building a list, it's not, it is mind numbingly boring.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 12:50:30 GMT
So try actually NOT take only 100 Points of Warjacks? Maybe its just that Heavy metal Sucks, but in Jaws of the wolf mixed arms battles are very possible and doable and have had much success already in tournaments.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 19, 2017 12:58:23 GMT
And yet many of the best Cygnar players in Europe are running lists in Storm Division or not in theme at all.
Just because you choose to run both lists in HM doesn't mean that's the only way to play.
I was not stating that they are the only way to play, or that Heavy Metal is the only good theme in Cygnar. I was disagreeing with the statement that Heavy Metal can be a creative or exciting way of building a list, it's not, it is mind numbingly boring.
Well obviously I can't tell you what to find interesting.
Personally I find the challenge of trying different jack combinations to solve varying problems, interesting. If I didn't then I'd probably move onto a different theme, but I suppose it depends on if you think its clearly the best way to play or not.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 19, 2017 12:58:33 GMT
So try actually NOT take only 100 Points of Warjacks? Maybe its just that Heavy metal Sucks, but in Jaws of the wolf mixed arms battles are very possible and doable and have had much success already in tournaments. Well, that's the main way to play HM. The only mixed arms list with it includes sword knights. Now, I actually like Sword Knights, and I have a feeling they'll only get better when SR17 gets released. But it's pretty obvious that the most points efficient Cygnar list is HM with nothing but jacks. You get 17 free points.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 12:59:26 GMT
So try actually NOT take only 100 Points of Warjacks? Maybe its just that Heavy metal Sucks, but in Jaws of the wolf mixed arms battles are very possible and doable and have had much success already in tournaments. Why tho?
more points = moar betterer
On a serious note, Jaws of the Wolf has more infantry options than Heavy Metal. I could take less warjacks, lose some free support models and take... Sword Knights...woop dee do!
anyway my main point was not that Heavy Metal is bad (it's not) or that it is the only way to play Cygnar (it's not), I was contending the point that taking an Ironclad or Hammersmith in Heavy Metal is somehow exciting.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 19, 2017 13:00:21 GMT
Completely disagree with this assessment "Theme Lists remove the Creativity of List Building Some of this is covered in the previous fallacy, but list building is more interesting that it has ever been." You then cite Heavy Metal as an example of an interesting list building experience because Ironclads and Hammersmith's are being considered now, sorry but that is completely false. I play exclusively Heavy Metal at the moment, choosing 100+ points of jacks to get my 4 free solos is not exciting or creative in the slightest. And yet many of the best Cygnar players in Europe are running lists in Storm Division, Sons of Tempest or not in theme at all.
Just because you choose to run both lists in HM doesn't mean that's the only way to play.
Out of curiosity, could you post some links to those lists? I haven't seen a SotT list used.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 19, 2017 13:00:35 GMT
So try actually NOT take only 100 Points of Warjacks? Maybe its just that Heavy metal Sucks, but in Jaws of the wolf mixed arms battles are very possible and doable and have had much success already in tournaments. Well, that's the main way to play HM. The only mixed arms list with it includes sword knights. Now, I actually like Sword Knights, and I have a feeling they'll only get better when SR17 gets released. But it's pretty obvious that the most points efficient Cygnar list is HM with nothing but jacks. You get 17 free points. But when you have limited options being the most points efficient isn't everything. Sometimes losing out on a free solo because it means you can take a tarpit or another model that solves a problem makes the list stronger, but less efficient.
And trying out things like that is part of the process.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 13:03:31 GMT
I was not stating that they are the only way to play, or that Heavy Metal is the only good theme in Cygnar. I was disagreeing with the statement that Heavy Metal can be a creative or exciting way of building a list, it's not, it is mind numbingly boring.
Well obviously I can't tell you what to find interesting.
Personally I find the challenge of trying different jack combinations to solve varying problems, interesting. If I didn't then I'd probably move onto a different theme, but I suppose it depends on if you think its clearly the best way to play or not.
actually trying to fit exactly 100 points of warjacks into my Haley 2 list is a puzzle, so I guess it's fun
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 19, 2017 13:05:39 GMT
Haley2 - Squire - Hurricane - Thorn - Hammersmith - Charger Jakes - Stormclad Junior - Charger Strangeways
That's Pat's list and I liked it. I'm 100% positive Alastair Johnstone was running something quite different.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 13:06:30 GMT
Why tho?
more points = moar betterer
On a serious note, Jaws of the Wolf has more infantry options than Heavy Metal. I could take less warjacks, lose some free support models and take... Sword Knights...woop dee do!
Because it's still good? Don't kinda forget what you're actually making. Overstuffing a list with models you won't be able to support properly OR won't work well with your caster will always be 20 times worse than a free solo or even two. Maximizing Free points is fools gold.
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