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Post by Azuresun on Jun 20, 2017 22:21:49 GMT
Turns out anything is good at 0pts, even Stannis Brocker. The correct solution would have been to fix point costs, not use themes as a band-aid or bribe. But like I said, cat's out the bag, and everyone who plays factions with good themes is too used to getting free stuff as a reward for playing their best lists now. It's a moot point. I've got Gators with no posse, Legion, Cryx, and Circle. What faction are you playing that has no good theme? If you say convergence then I'm sorry you can't understand how that many free bodies, shield guards, and tons of armor+box is a bad deal. I will concede I know nothing of Mercs, much less their theme list. But that's only one out of 12(?) factions. that's hardly a catastrophe it's being made out to be. Wait for CID like every one else. It is not a moot point. Agreeing with injustice for the sake of "oh well it already happened" solves nothing. The CID exists to correct that exact thing. Being passive aggressive towards anyone you deem to have "better toys" than you is a moot point. Somehow, I don't think CID is going to take free points away from all themes. And there's a difference between "can make a good list with this" themes, and ones that reward you for taking stuff that was already good, and for some factions, make you feel like a schmuck for playing out of theme at all. Whether it happened in muddled concept of what themes are, or uneven implication of them across factions, I'd prefer it if it hadn't worked out like that. That's all I wanted to say.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 20, 2017 22:54:24 GMT
I think every unit should be a compelling choice. Sword knights are not a compelling choice. Consider that while they are "cheap" they have one of the worst statline for a strictly melee unit on the game (mat 6, pow 10). They have flank Warjack, but at that point you have needed a Warjack to go into melee with the target (and not kill it itself) and then get a number of sword knights in. When that is required are they really so cheap? I mean those stats are better than Kriel Warriors. Mat 5, Pow 10. Kriel warriors are also bad, I've heard.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 20, 2017 23:39:28 GMT
it's pretty obvious that the most points efficient Cygnar list is HM with nothing but jacks. You get 17 free points. Anyone that uses free points as a measurement of the plight that are Themes (allegedly) should go and listen to this Dark Guidance episode museonminis.com/dark-guidance-24-cygnar-privilege/Building to maximize points is a trap and arguing that it's a reason for Themes OP-ness is a fallacy. See for example (mentioned in Dark Guidance) the question Ret players need to answer: Run Eiryss_3 as a CA, or maybe go for Eiryss_2 for some sweet Disruptions? Or, go for scrub tier mentality and run Eiryss_1 because herp-derp she's the most expensive version of the 3?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 21, 2017 1:06:40 GMT
it's pretty obvious that the most points efficient Cygnar list is HM with nothing but jacks. You get 17 free points. Anyone that uses free points as a measurement of the plight that are Themes (allegedly) should go and listen to this Dark Guidance episode museonminis.com/dark-guidance-24-cygnar-privilege/Building to maximize points is a trap and arguing that it's a reason for Themes OP-ness is a fallacy. See for example (mentioned in Dark Guidance) the question Ret players need to answer: Run Eiryss_3 as a CA, or maybe go for Eiryss_2 for some sweet Disruptions? Or, go for scrub tier mentality and run Eiryss_1 because herp-derp she's the most expensive version of the 3? Dark Guidance is my meta and I know Josh doesn't play in theme but the opinion that you don't need to play in theme felt more rosy during that episode than it is in real life.
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Post by garmerar on Jun 21, 2017 5:02:21 GMT
I haven't listened to the Dark Guidance episode in question but Jack and Colin were both in my OTC team and our team's list building strategy was essentially to take tiers and maximize free points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 21, 2017 13:13:02 GMT
I've got Gators with no posse, Legion, Cryx, and Circle. What faction are you playing that has no good theme? If you say convergence then I'm sorry you can't understand how that many free bodies, shield guards, and tons of armor+box is a bad deal. I will concede I know nothing of Mercs, much less their theme list. But that's only one out of 12(?) factions. that's hardly a catastrophe it's being made out to be. Wait for CID like every one else. It is not a moot point. Agreeing with injustice for the sake of "oh well it already happened" solves nothing. The CID exists to correct that exact thing. Being passive aggressive towards anyone you deem to have "better toys" than you is a moot point. Somehow, I don't think CID is going to take free points away from all themes. And there's a difference between "can make a good list with this" themes, and ones that reward you for taking stuff that was already good, and for some factions, make you feel like a schmuck for playing out of theme at all. Whether it happened in muddled concept of what themes are, or uneven implication of them across factions, I'd prefer it if it hadn't worked out like that. That's all I wanted to say. So does it literally boil down to you don't want themes to let anyone take models that were already good? Or is it more correct to say you don't want theme rules to benefit models that were already good? Again the argument against extremes; we're already in a pretty dam good middle ground. Many themes are creating lists that were not possible before and are making previously unused models more competitive.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 22, 2017 11:58:45 GMT
Specifically on the topic of Sword Knights in Heavy Metal. I see a lot of discussion that they need support from a jack to be effective and the CA doesn't do much (except it actually enables Defensive Line more easily after charging), but why not look at it from another way? You use them as the clean-up crew. One of your light jacks isn't powerful enough to finish something on its own, but when you have 1-2 MAT 8 Weapon Masters chasing it, they can easily mop up, or when you get a streak of bad luck with a heavy. They're cheap enough and have high enough defensive stats to be a decent tarpit, they can then do their cleaning duty and reposition straight back into tarpit mode. Sure, you might say, but another jack can also mop up for the same cost, which is true, but they can't do it on multiple targets in the same turn, nor can they effectively tarpit other infantry. You don't even really have to take the CA if you don't want to, nor is it a necessity to take 2 full units of them, so you could even pay for Runewood and get the third free solo from your jacks.
I'm not saying that they're the be-all end-all of Heavy Metal, far from it, but they do bring options, especially with casters like Striker 2 or Haley 3.
On the topic of Polish players, they have always been a meta on their own, which is surprisingly rather effective.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 22, 2017 13:38:29 GMT
Theme lists could be ok IF, big IF, everyone had them in 2 major areas. An unrestricted BG list and an fairly unrestricted infantry theme. while this doesn't happen you have players with 10-15 extra points while happily losing out of Mercs/Minions that got hit by the great FF change of MK3.
If Harm was Friendly, if Pendrake was Friendly, if Solid Ground was Friendly, etc... then themes would be a lot more of a choice instead of a no-brainer. Themes will only be 50% as long as a lot of factions don't have good enough themes... when they do it'll be closer to 100% than to 50%, IMO.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 22, 2017 14:33:52 GMT
I think JSidro has hit it on the head.
We're seeing a lot of lists outside of themes while many factions have poor themes. When all factions have compelling themes, anyone playing outside of themes is going to be intentionally hamstringing herself.
-und_ed
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 22, 2017 14:59:01 GMT
Theme lists could be ok IF, big IF, everyone had them in 2 major areas. An unrestricted BG list and an fairly unrestricted infantry theme. while this doesn't happen you have players with 10-15 extra points while happily losing out of Mercs/Minions that got hit by the great FF change of MK3. If Harm was Friendly, if Pendrake was Friendly, if Solid Ground was Friendly, etc... then themes would be a lot more of a choice instead of a no-brainer. Themes will only be 50% as long as a lot of factions don't have good enough themes... when they do it'll be closer to 100% than to 50%, IMO. Yet Ruhpert survived with his song of tough in tact ... why? ... who knows. Then the croc doc lost zombifie for friendlies because hordes aren't allowed to have nice things ... . As for sword knights most of you guys are crazy. They're good for their points level. You can't expect more for that cost. Jam them in melee in B2B and they'll hold with the best of them. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Maddox in heavy metal with them. She brings the ideal buff that they want for +3arm and tough and her feat turns them into a wrecking crew. Tack on her ability to hand out snipe to jacks on Jr and it turns into a compelling list very quickly. As an example Cygnar Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Heavy Metal (Maddox 1) Major Beth Maddox [+30] - Brickhouse [18] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hurricane [39] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Charger [9] - Charger [9] Sword Knights (max) [13] Tweak to taste To the main topic of the thread I've posted about his else where but themes are great. PP just needs to do a small rebalancing round on them and things will be fine. The main fix needs to be infantry themes giving free points for every 17pts of models instead of 20 to allow hordes to actually fill out their battle groups while maximizing theme efficiency and packaging more of the cheap solos into free bundles like they did for the wracks. Do that and you'll see most themes come up in utility just fine. I also really liked the suggestion to not allow WJP and WBP to contribute to themes and reducing jack requirements to 20pts as well. No 75pt list should be able to get 4 free solos. Limit it to 3 across the board.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 22, 2017 15:30:04 GMT
Theme lists could be ok IF, big IF, everyone had them in 2 major areas. An unrestricted BG list and an fairly unrestricted infantry theme. while this doesn't happen you have players with 10-15 extra points while happily losing out of Mercs/Minions that got hit by the great FF change of MK3. If Harm was Friendly, if Pendrake was Friendly, if Solid Ground was Friendly, etc... then themes would be a lot more of a choice instead of a no-brainer. Themes will only be 50% as long as a lot of factions don't have good enough themes... when they do it'll be closer to 100% than to 50%, IMO. Yet Ruhpert survived with his song of tough in tact ... why? ... who knows. Then the croc doc lost zombifie for friendlies because hordes aren't allowed to have nice things ... . As for sword knights most of you guys are crazy. They're good for their points level. You can't expect more for that cost. Jam them in melee in B2B and they'll hold with the best of them. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Maddox in heavy metal with them. She brings the ideal buff that they want for +3arm and tough and her feat turns them into a wrecking crew. Tack on her ability to hand out snipe to jacks on Jr and it turns into a compelling list very quickly. As an example Cygnar Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Heavy Metal (Maddox 1) Major Beth Maddox [+30] - Brickhouse [18] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hurricane [39] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Charger [9] - Charger [9] Sword Knights (max) [13] Tweak to taste To the main topic of the thread I've posted about his else where but themes are great. PP just needs to do a small rebalancing round on them and things will be fine. The main fix needs to be infantry themes giving free points for every 17pts of models instead of 20 to allow hordes to actually fill out their battle groups while maximizing theme efficiency and packaging more of the cheap solos into free bundles like they did for the wracks. Do that and you'll see most themes come up in utility just fine. I also really liked the suggestion to not allow WJP and WBP to contribute to themes and reducing jack requirements to 20pts as well. No 75pt list should be able to get 4 free solos. Limit it to 3 across the board. I really dislike the suggestion to disallow wjp. It changes the amount of jacks you need to bring to get those points. Presently you can get 3 solos for 75 points of your total army. With the proposed change, you get 3 solos for 60+wjp of your total army. For a caster with 25 wjp, that's 85 points. And that leaves 15 points for other things. This penalizes players who aren't already only bringing jacks. And the notion that no theme should allow 4 free solos is oppinion. It should not be presented as a self evident fact.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 22, 2017 15:36:14 GMT
Where did I say anything was fact? Of course its opinion as nothing in this thread could conceivably be presented as fact since we're not dealing with any kind of data. Might want to dial that back a bit.
As to your other points I can definitely see where you're coming from on the WJP/WBP thing. I would probably lean towards disallowing them and doing the same reduction to 17 points as the infantry themes. That problem definitely deserves way more consideration and analysis.
4 free solos is balls though and I think that or 15pts max should be the design threshold for free points from themes.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 22, 2017 15:50:05 GMT
Where did I say anything was fact? Of course its opinion as nothing in this thread could conceivably be presented as fact since we're not dealing with any kind of data. Might want to dial that back a bit. As to your other points I can definitely see where you're coming from on the WJP/WBP thing. I would probably lean towards disallowing them and doing the same reduction to 17 points as the infantry themes. That problem definitely deserves way more consideration and analysis. 4 free solos is balls though and I think that or 15pts max should be the design threshold for free points from themes. I don't need to dial anything back. You clearly stated "No 75pt list should be able to get 4 free solos. Limit it to 3 across the board." You did not begin the statement with an "I think that", as you have here in your second comment. The 17 points bracket likely won't happen because 17 is more difficult to do mental calculations with. 17, 34, 51, 68. They're not good, pretty numbers for a game. Numbers divisible by 5 are much more common in games because it is easier to group 5s. It does indeed require more consideration and analysis.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 22, 2017 16:28:22 GMT
Stormsmith Dropout Well, I pay 13+8+9+4+5+6 for my sword knights, sentinel, charger, junior, squire and finn... That's 45pts but 17 come from my wjp so... People who make lists without using army builder can multiply 17 a few times...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 22, 2017 16:35:33 GMT
You did not begin the statement with an "I think that", as you have here in your second comment. That's literally ALL it could ever be. We don't begin every statement and comment with "I think that". It's a really personal pet peeve of mine that people take every comment all personally unless you say "It's my opinion". Literally, everything you ever say can only be your opinion.
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