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Post by sentinel on Jun 19, 2017 13:12:01 GMT
I think that themes should be changed that warjack points wont give you free points. At the same time in warjack themes points per free solo should be reduced. That puts warjack themes in pair with others by max 3 free solos; remove puzzle element cause you need only 60 points out of 75 being warjacks; brings more choices for a player. Posted that on CID forum.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 19, 2017 13:16:46 GMT
In Khador after themes there are more list types, than before themes. Can't say about other factions.
Creativity is subjective.
I agree about vulnerability of spam. But specifically themes do not promote spam, because everything that is spammed now was spammed before themes were a thing. No new case of spam appeared due to themes.
Diversity is again not affected by themes. Everyone stuck to a set of most competitive lists before and still stuck but to a different set of lists after themes.
Can't say about less choices. Some choices were enabled by themes, some disabled. For example a lot of solos\artillery are played only for free in themes, meanwhile merc\minion usage plummeted.
About the "take 100 points of jacks" thing I can only say that Khador jack and wg themes can be built both ways. They can be viably built with a jack or infantry focus without maximizing free points. You can't generalize all themes to be this or other way. And obviously infantry themes are impossible to build this way because they have cut off after 60 pts while jacks don't.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 13:17:43 GMT
Haley2 - Squire - Hurricane - Thorn - Hammersmith - Charger Jakes - Stormclad Junior - Charger Strangeways That's Pat's list and I liked it. I'm 100% positive Alastair Johnstone was running something quite different. Yeah I think Al's list had a Stormwall instead of a Hurricane
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 19, 2017 13:19:06 GMT
I think that themes should be changed that warjack points wont give you free points. At the same time in warjack themes points per free solo should be reduced. That puts warjack themes in pair with others by max 3 free solos; remove puzzle element cause you need only 60 points out of 75 being warjacks; brings more choices for a player. Posted that on CID forum. Yes, but that's still 60+wjp in warjacks. Presnently, I can run a heavy metal list with 2 full units of sword knights, and still have enough points in jacks to get 3 free solos. Thats 49/75 points in jacks plus the wjp. Your suggestion would only serve to eliminate this option. People would continue to load up on jacks, they'd just get a bit less out of it.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 13:20:24 GMT
Why tho?
more points = moar betterer
On a serious note, Jaws of the Wolf has more infantry options than Heavy Metal. I could take less warjacks, lose some free support models and take... Sword Knights...woop dee do!
Because it's still good? Don't kinda forget what you're actually making. Overstuffing a list with models you won't be able to support properly OR won't work well with your caster will always be 20 times worse than a free solo or even two. Maximizing Free points is fools gold. Maximizing Free points is fools gold.
fixed that for you
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 13:25:33 GMT
I guess. I mean humans have certain Psychological barriers built in. There is a reason why "Buy 1 get 1 Free" gets us all excited even if it ends with us buying stuff we don't need to "Save" money.
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Post by sentinel on Jun 19, 2017 13:26:05 GMT
I think that themes should be changed that warjack points wont give you free points. At the same time in warjack themes points per free solo should be reduced. That puts warjack themes in pair with others by max 3 free solos; remove puzzle element cause you need only 60 points out of 75 being warjacks; brings more choices for a player. Posted that on CID forum. Yes, but that's still 60+wjp in warjacks. Presnently, I can run a heavy metal list with 2 full units of sword knights, and still have enough points in jacks to get 3 free solos. Thats 49/75 points in jacks plus the wjp. Your suggestion would only serve to eliminate this option. People would continue to load up on jacks, they'd just get a bit less out of it. My opinion is if PP think that themes are OK, lets make same rules for all themes. One theme cant take 4 free solos, other can. Thats the main thing I'm bothered. In general themes are fine - without them game is going to collapse by its weight. When new unit comes, in most cases it could be better than others - then players must buy it and not happy; or worse than others - then PP are not happy. Themes make (theoretically) happy both players and PP. Just look at retribution melee infantry - have anyone seen infiltrators out of their theme?
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Post by pangurban on Jun 19, 2017 13:44:19 GMT
Yes, but that's still 60+wjp in warjacks. Presnently, I can run a heavy metal list with 2 full units of sword knights, and still have enough points in jacks to get 3 free solos. Thats 49/75 points in jacks plus the wjp. Your suggestion would only serve to eliminate this option. People would continue to load up on jacks, they'd just get a bit less out of it. My opinion is if PP think that themes are OK, lets make same rules for all themes. One theme cant take 4 free solos, other can. Thats the main thing I'm bothered. In general themes are fine - without them game is going to collapse by its weight. When new unit comes, in most cases it could be better than others - then players must buy it and not happy; or worse than others - then PP are not happy. Themes make (theoretically) happy both players and PP. Just look at retribution melee infantry - have anyone seen infiltrators out of their theme? www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1417
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Post by celeb on Jun 19, 2017 13:52:44 GMT
I mostly agree with the article, but I think themes are (slightly) too strong, as out of theme is almost not an option anymore to stay competetive. Maybe when the dust on the new themes settled a bit, we will see some out of theme lists as certain tech-choices (I am currently considering one of my 2 lists to be out of theme to specifically cater to Circle).
I do agree that "just max free points" isn't always the best course of action. When Defenders of Ios first came out, I only had 21 pts of Houseguard in my List and therefore only 1 free solo, and the list worked better than just spamming Halberdiers for free stuff. Now, that list would get another solo, if the CID passes, but that is another story. I would always look to build a good list first, and then see if I should change anything to get to another free solo.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 13:57:35 GMT
My personal view is that PP want theme forces to be the default way of playing this game.
My wager is that 85% + of lists at the WTC will be in theme
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 19, 2017 14:00:29 GMT
I also think that themes will be the default. It isn't necessarily a bad thing. If we can get PP to run old themes through CID, then they'll at least be balanced in time.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 19, 2017 14:08:51 GMT
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 19, 2017 14:15:01 GMT
another agreement on the principle. Maybe not to the exact detail.
I myself have tested 2 list in theme that I like. The majority of everything else I'm playing right now is out of theme because of their restrictions. I've come to rely on infantry but our themes do not accommodate our passable infantry options. If I want swordsmen I have to play CotD. If I want the Blight bringer I can only play Oracles. So I'm completely out of luck to play them together. So right now I've got Kryssa in a me-specific perfect out of theme list while working on Fyanna 2, Lylyth 2, and Kallus 2 out of theme as well.
In theme I have Abby 2 B-list Oracles (blightbringer and blight wasps). So I'm going off "meta" because I am building to cover the weaknesses that would come with beast spam. As well as trying to best utilize her kit (why does she have return fire?). I could just go with heavies spam Carniveans/Neraphs/etc. But that opens up, as the article said, weaknesses.
The other theme is Bethayne in CotD. Laugh as you like. Flanking warlords on a disintegrated target is disgustingly lethal.
So to make a point from that ramble. Due to themes existing I have both found it interesting to work lists into and out of theme. I've picked up "unpopular" casters and made them work in entirely different ways. So I'm trying to be a part of the "list variety" part of the article's argument.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 19, 2017 14:23:15 GMT
Don't worry, they still have time to repent and fall back in line
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Post by pangurban on Jun 19, 2017 14:37:17 GMT
Don't worry, they still have time to repent and fall back in line Do you know what the Polish are like?
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