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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 13, 2017 14:18:22 GMT
Among Trollblood players, we have had many discussions about how Power of Dhunia always seems to loom over our other themes, and whether that's because our beasts are just plain better than everything else, or if there's a problem in the way that jack/beast themes in general are structured, or the way that unit-based themes are. I'm wondering about this again in light of recent discussions about Heavy Metal and the Cygnar CID. I'm reminded of how I have wondered in the past about whether Forges of War might be too good and Children of the Dragon far too restrictive, for example.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 13, 2017 14:31:51 GMT
Honestly, as a Jack theme, Jaws of the Wolf is pretty unique and has had people trying out stuff that often doesn't get any love.
But people hate it because Khador Jacks are armor 20.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 13, 2017 14:35:03 GMT
Themes are a problem in and of themselves, the fact that most jack/beast themes aren't very restrictive is just adding on problems to an already flawed design.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 13, 2017 15:02:42 GMT
There is one wrinkle to this that does bear special mention even if it's not the only thing: The math is very different between BG themes and unit themes, and it is possible that such is not balanced quite right. We get a free solo option for every 25 points of beasts/jacks or 20 points of units, and often that is limited to specific units even among those allowed in the theme. Band of Heroes, for example, allows Fennblades and the KSB, but only grants free solos for Champs, Warders, and Long Riders.
Obviously, the difference in those numbers is meant to offset the head start created by warjack and warbeast points, but it's debatable as to whether that ratio is offset enough. Could it be only when a list like Heavy Metal can run 100 points worth of jacks with no downside? Then how to explain POD? Because we can't do that in Trollbloods. Or is the problem that BG themes allow all non-character jacks/beasts while unit themes are much more restricted by nature?
So it's more likely that it's really a combination of factors that vary in severity and nature from one faction to another, but still I think it's worth discussing.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 13, 2017 15:02:43 GMT
I know this will get drowned out among the Doom and gloom, but Themes are fine. The jack and beast themes are fine.
The game is literally better than it has ever been. The game is more balanced than it's ever been.
I know that change is scary, but you will find that : - list building, is way more interesting with themes. - You will find interesting and innovative ways to solve problems instead of relying on the same 2-3 units/solos - You will play stuff that you thought wasn't good enough and find yourself not missing things that were auto-includes. - That includes casters you thought were garbage that suddenly work because of a theme.
Finally every time a theme comes out it has the potential to change the way you think about every caster in your faction.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 13, 2017 15:04:47 GMT
Well, with themes all lists eventually gravitate towards spam. And while some spam is fine, all spam all the time is not. So yes, I'd say it's a problem.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 13, 2017 15:08:10 GMT
I know this will get drowned out among the Doom and gloom, but Themes are fine. The jack and beast themes are fine. The game is literally better than it has ever been. The game is more balanced than it's ever been. I know that change is scary, but you will find that : - list building, is way more interesting with themes. - You will find interesting and innovative ways to solve problems instead of relying on the same 2-3 units/solos - You will play stuff that you thought wasn't good enough and find yourself not missing things that were auto-includes. - That includes casters you thought were garbage that suddenly work because of a theme. Finally every time a theme comes out it has the potential to change the way you think about every caster in your faction. Don't get me wrong, I do MUCH prefer MK3 theme design over MK2 themes, but I do see some problems and I do wonder how pervasive they really are.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 13, 2017 15:21:13 GMT
Well, with themes all lists eventually gravitate towards spam. And while some spam is fine, all spam all the time is not. So yes, I'd say it's a problem. Because of unbalanced stuff in lists, you gravitate towards spam. Nothing (Except maybe the Ghost Crew, and I think thats because so few people tried with them. The +1 to Guys is really a pretty MINOR change overall) that wasn't spammed before started getting spam after lists. Theme lists can't fix spam, only good fixes can.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 13, 2017 15:27:30 GMT
I'd say the concept of themes is fantastic. It allows PP to balance factions in managable chunks, and could lead to an incredibly balanced game.
However, the implementation has not been perfect. In terms of power, themes are all over the place.
I would love for PP to spend a couple of CID cycles just focusing on themes. Release a couple of new ones (like for Skorne), and add in one theme for each faction and attempt to balance them all out.
As for Beast/Jack themes, I like that they are a really strong option. Warmachine and Hordes are supposed to be centered on battlegroups. I like that they are prevalent.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 13, 2017 15:38:01 GMT
I think it's easier to skew with jacks/beasts. Like there are waaaay more competitive all melee or all ranged all jack armies that spam same things. Units even in themes usually don't do that, and if they do, they're less competitive, because they have more counters. And they can't go full unit spam, because obligatory battlegroup exists and FA on units is a thing.
But it has nothing to do with themes. Remove themes and all-jack/beast skew will still exist. Theme is just the easiest way to do that. If anything themes give more variations to all-jack lists, otherwise everyone would just take same optimised list with same character jacks and mercs.
Specifically for trolls playing beasts is their most competitive option. Playing beast theme that maximizes that option is the clear best decision. As soon as other options become more competitive trolls will stop playing 2x Dunia. I'm not obligated to play jack theme in Khador for example. I can even have jack lists out of theme or in non-jack theme or even take a jack theme and build an infantry-focused list with it because those options have competitive reasons, there is no straight upgrade like non-Dunia into Dunia.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 13, 2017 16:27:23 GMT
Well, with themes all lists eventually gravitate towards spam. And while some spam is fine, all spam all the time is not. So yes, I'd say it's a problem. Because of unbalanced stuff in lists, you gravitate towards spam. Nothing (Except maybe the Ghost Crew, and I think thats because so few people tried with them. The +1 to Guys is really a pretty MINOR change overall) that wasn't spammed before started getting spam after lists. Theme lists can't fix spam, only good fixes can. Houseguard Halberdiers to name just one example.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jun 13, 2017 16:35:06 GMT
I know this will get drowned out among the Doom and gloom, but Themes are fine. The jack and beast themes are fine. The game is literally better than it has ever been. The game is more balanced than it's ever been. I know that change is scary, but you will find that : - list building, is way more interesting with themes. - You will find interesting and innovative ways to solve problems instead of relying on the same 2-3 units/solos - You will play stuff that you thought wasn't good enough and find yourself not missing things that were auto-includes. - That includes casters you thought were garbage that suddenly work because of a theme. Finally every time a theme comes out it has the potential to change the way you think about every caster in your faction. Don't get me wrong, I do MUCH prefer MK3 theme design over MK2 themes, but I do see some problems and I do wonder how pervasive they really are. In my opinion, there are 2 big problems with the Mk3 themes: Privateer Press not playtesting their theme armies (fixed with CID) and people who can't see the big picture. There is a group of people who are stuck in an echo chamber called "The Internet" that cannot mentally take a step back and see what Privateer Press tried to do and is in the process of trying to do. This group is a subset of the group of people stuck in the same echo chamber called "The Internet" that all like to play the same units and the same army lists. I'd draw a Venn diagram showing this relationship, but I am just too damn lazy to do this. I've been to the Troll forums a couple of times, and it seemed like all I saw was "Power of Dhunia" and "add a Dire Troll Mauler" bum ba dum dum dum... Really?!? I was shocked when you guys thought the idea of having Gunnbjorn's battlegroup being made up of Blitzers, Dozer & Smig, and a Bomber was a "novel idea." Instead of connecting the dots of Dual Attack + Guided Fire + run hot with Whelps = PROFIT!!! some of you guys just seem to want to Female Dog about pillow-fisted Blitzers, go back to Power of Dhunia, add a Rock and a Mauler, and call it a day. Man, and I thought that the "Axe to face" in Khador was bad at times... Back to the topic: I think what people fail to realize is that Privateer Press is in the process of a very large expansion project to grab business from GW. I think that their ultimate goal is to make all of their stuff (all factions, all units, and all warjacks) playable and to expand the number of factions, both in general (CoC, Grymkin, etc.) and within the factions (electrical faction, Trenchers, steam stuff within Cygnar for example) to cast a bigger net of appeal to more potential players. Big stompy stuff is the hook, that is what got us all interested in this game, right? A lot of us old players already have infantry models from the "Infantrymachine" days of Mk2, and we are loading up on jacks for the Jackspam days of Mk3. The new players are getting hooked on the game because of the stompy stuff and the corresponding jack/beast spam theme armies. There have already been some other theme armies put out for notable theme armies that were around back in Mk2 (Moar Banez!) and to make the more niche factions more usable (Rhulics, Gators, Piggyz). Now PP is turning its attention to the expansion project, with the first step being the Trenchers. It makes sense, the Trenchers never were fully fleshed out as a standing army. I wouldn't be surprised if the Winter Guard and Man-O-war get some love. Who knows what's coming for the Protectorate or Cryx. The returning Nyss and the Elowyr might get expanded upon for the elves. And that's just Warmachine! Gunnbjorn's professionalization of the trolls, the further damnation of the Nyss under Everblight, and who knows what with the others. Long Story - Short: PP is in the middle of a bigger project, and to judge the "health of the game" based upon what you are seeing now and what you are hearing from all of the other people saying the same thing is ill-advised. But hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 13, 2017 16:42:58 GMT
people who can't see the big picture. There is a group of people who are stuck in an echo chamber called "The Internet" that cannot mentally take a step back and see what Privateer Press tried to do and is in the process of trying to do. This group is a subset of the group of people stuck in the same echo chamber called "The Internet" that all like to play the same units and the same army lists. I'd draw a Venn diagram showing this relationship, but I am just too damn lazy to do this. This is pretty rude of you. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a short-sighted idiot. But to remain on topic: What is the big picture? To give you a bit of context, I like playing balanced armies that contain a bit of everything. In my case some beasts, some Praetoreans, some Reivers and some Paingivers. But themes in their current incarnation massively discourage this kind of list, which is my favorite kind. What is the bigger picture here and why should I be optimistic about it? I like being optimistic so please make me.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 13, 2017 16:47:20 GMT
Houseguard Halberdiers to name just one example. Really? What was the tipping point? (I have not witnessed it in my meta).
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 13, 2017 16:49:19 GMT
Well 3 free solos and advance move on an already fast unit are quite compelling. It's not the next Ghost Fleet, but it's out there.
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