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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 17, 2017 4:54:33 GMT
As to legion getting a beast theme, that'd be fine...if the beasts that can be taken are in some way restricted (so let's say, Carnivean chassis only) and you can't just take all of the support you'd otherwise want (so let's say...no forsaken.) that'd be fine by me, and would parallel comparable themes in Circle, Retribution, and other factions with acceptable jack/beast themes. This particular BS is so biased it hurts. You obviously have a thorn in your side with flying Legion beasts. You say you're not attacking Fyanna but this still sounds so salty. No other caster pushes flyers to a decent level, so there would be no one else this could be targeting. Next, If you remove the Forsaken I pay 4 points to take them, and then use the free stuff for BETTER models. Forsaken are a crap tax we have to pay to have a decent game. Like the Krielstone and beast handlers. Both of which are decidedly better. Circle has some of the worst Themes. So why does legion have to get nerfed but not every other faction? Lets just bring every thing down to impossible to use. Again, have to be balanced. Even if we take the whining and change everything about Oracles. Even if the next theme makes sure to cater to your hatred of flyers. Fyanna takes Ravens of war and ruins your day just as easily by removing AD, Having all stealth infantry at Def 18, and ambushing pow 15 flying grotesques. That's just as capable. You will have gained no respite, and we would still be just as good. Grow. the firetruck. up. My meta has two legion players. One mains Fyanna2, the other plays her occasionally. I've lost all of one game against that list out of more than a dozen, so you can take your accusations of personal bias and shove them somewhere the sun doesn't shine. You need to learn to read, because nothing you're saying has any relation to anything I've said over the last couple of pages. In particular, you seem to have singled me out as having some kind of anti-legion bias, when out of the 4 themes I've posed as problematic, only 1 is a legion theme. If I have an issue with any of those themes in particular, it's Jaws, because my Circle has a legitimately tough time playing into a Harkevich Jackspam. So you can take your victim complex and firetruck riiiiiight off, kiddo. borderprince: What non-jaws list would you run, if you were intending to run Khador Jackspam? I don't play Khador, but all of the Khador players in my area tell me it's a no brainer for jack heavy lists, and on first glance, I agree. Particularly with Harkevich, most of the weaknesses you list are mitigated, and the list gives a couple of factions an extremely tough time.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 17, 2017 12:30:46 GMT
borderprince : What non-jaws list would you run, if you were intending to run Khador Jackspam? I don't play Khador, but all of the Khador players in my area tell me it's a no brainer for jack heavy lists, and on first glance, I agree. Particularly with Harkevich, most of the weaknesses you list are mitigated, and the list gives a couple of factions an extremely tough time. Anytime you have a pure beast/jack list you're going to have these comparisons. If Cygnar's playing jackspam, why play out of heavy metal? If Protectorate is playing jackspm why play out of creator's might? Retribution has forges of war, which is slightly restrictive. Convergence has destruction initiative (which gives free models for 20 points of jacks instead of 25). Trolls have power of dhunia. Legion has Oracles. Only Cryx, Circle, Skorne, Mercs, and Minions don't have a theme that gives free points for mainly unlimited jacks/beasts. I imagine Skorne will get one in their command book. The thing about all of those themes though is that the Legion one forfeits one of it's bonuses by taking all beasts. Legion has to give up the apparition on a unit each turn. Every other jack/beast list is focused on either the battlegroup getting bonuses or the support solos getting bonuses. Also, technically if Legion had free points for all magic using models, that would include beasts. Animi are spells so every beast is a magic using model. They are all considered spellcasters in the rules.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 17, 2017 13:11:39 GMT
borderprince : What non-jaws list would you run, if you were intending to run Khador Jackspam? I don't play Khador, but all of the Khador players in my area tell me it's a no brainer for jack heavy lists, and on first glance, I agree. Particularly with Harkevich, most of the weaknesses you list are mitigated, and the list gives a couple of factions an extremely tough time. Anytime you have a pure beast/jack list you're going to have these comparisons. If Cygnar's playing jackspam, why play out of heavy metal? If Protectorate is playing jackspm why play out of creator's might? Retribution has forges of war, which is slightly restrictive. Convergence has destruction initiative (which gives free models for 20 points of jacks instead of 25). Trolls have power of dhunia. Legion has Oracles. Only Cryx, Circle, Skorne, Mercs, and Minions don't have a theme that gives free points for mainly unlimited jacks/beasts. I imagine Skorne will get one in their command book. The thing about all of those themes though is that the Legion one forfeits one of it's bonuses by taking all beasts. Legion has to give up the apparition on a unit each turn. Every other jack/beast list is focused on either the battlegroup getting bonuses or the support solos getting bonuses. Also, technically if Legion had free points for all magic using models, that would include beasts. Animi are spells so every beast is a magic using model. They are all considered spellcasters in the rules. To be fair, the main point for the Convergence theme list is the absurd amount of small shield guard solo's you get from it. As for PoM, there are actually legit reasons to play out of Creator's Might, mostly that in theme you can't take a unit to screen with. Ryilan
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 17, 2017 13:31:17 GMT
Simmer down, fellas.
High def, no knockdown, and dodge are strong. But they have counters. All ya gotta do is not miss on your attack.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 17, 2017 13:34:35 GMT
Anytime you have a pure beast/jack list you're going to have these comparisons. If Cygnar's playing jackspam, why play out of heavy metal? If Protectorate is playing jackspm why play out of creator's might? Retribution has forges of war, which is slightly restrictive. Convergence has destruction initiative (which gives free models for 20 points of jacks instead of 25). Trolls have power of dhunia. Legion has Oracles. Only Cryx, Circle, Skorne, Mercs, and Minions don't have a theme that gives free points for mainly unlimited jacks/beasts. I imagine Skorne will get one in their command book. The thing about all of those themes though is that the Legion one forfeits one of it's bonuses by taking all beasts. Legion has to give up the apparition on a unit each turn. Every other jack/beast list is focused on either the battlegroup getting bonuses or the support solos getting bonuses. Also, technically if Legion had free points for all magic using models, that would include beasts. Animi are spells so every beast is a magic using model. They are all considered spellcasters in the rules. To be fair, the main point for the Convergence theme list is the absurd amount of small shield guard solo's you get from it. As for PoM, there are actually legit reasons to play out of Creator's Might, mostly that in theme you can't take a unit to screen with. Ryilan Oh I know. I have no problem sticking 20 points of free shield guards into my convergence list. Does protectorate need a screening unit if they play jack heavy? I admit I haven't played them in a long time and we don't have a protectorate player in the area. The last tournament i went to out of town though 3 out of 4 rounds I played against Amon in the theme. Or is he really the only one that uses the theme?
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 17, 2017 15:16:05 GMT
To be fair, the main point for the Convergence theme list is the absurd amount of small shield guard solo's you get from it. As for PoM, there are actually legit reasons to play out of Creator's Might, mostly that in theme you can't take a unit to screen with. Ryilan Oh I know. I have no problem sticking 20 points of free shield guards into my convergence list. Does protectorate need a screening unit if they play jack heavy? I admit I haven't played them in a long time and we don't have a protectorate player in the area. The last tournament i went to out of town though 3 out of 4 rounds I played against Amon in the theme. Or is he really the only one that uses the theme? The answers are no and no. Sevy2 can play Jacks only far better than Amon and without any infantry other than choir. To answer OP's question: no, because there are Battlegroup centric casters. Though calling Oracles Bg oriented is missleading. It's just our only theme without BG restrictions. For unknown reasons Legion themes are very restrictive, unlike, say, Storm Division or Jaws. Both of them (I consider Children of the Dragon very bad joke and can't really comment what kind of theme it is other than 'bad').
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 17, 2017 16:11:16 GMT
Oh I know. I have no problem sticking 20 points of free shield guards into my convergence list. Does protectorate need a screening unit if they play jack heavy? I admit I haven't played them in a long time and we don't have a protectorate player in the area. The last tournament i went to out of town though 3 out of 4 rounds I played against Amon in the theme. Or is he really the only one that uses the theme? The answers are no and no. Sevy2 can play Jacks only far better than Amon and without any infantry other than choir. To answer OP's question: no, because there are Battlegroup centric casters. Though calling Oracles Bg oriented is missleading. It's just our only theme without BG restrictions. For unknown reasons Legion themes are very restrictive, unlike, say, Storm Division or Jaws. Both of them (I consider Children of the Dragon very bad joke and can't really comment what kind of theme it is other than 'bad'). Even with Sevy2 i'd use a unit simply so i have a target for Holy Ward. I never stated however you need to use a unit to play Jack heavy. Just that it's a reason for people not to use Creator's Might. I've seen multiple people state they don't use Creator's Might for that excact reason specificly when mentioning Amon. Ryilan
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 16:23:54 GMT
The answers are no and no. Sevy2 can play Jacks only far better than Amon and without any infantry other than choir. To answer OP's question: no, because there are Battlegroup centric casters. Though calling Oracles Bg oriented is missleading. It's just our only theme without BG restrictions. For unknown reasons Legion themes are very restrictive, unlike, say, Storm Division or Jaws. Both of them (I consider Children of the Dragon very bad joke and can't really comment what kind of theme it is other than 'bad'). Even with Sevy2 i'd use a unit simply so i have a target for Holy Ward. I never stated however you need to use a unit to play Jack heavy. Just that it's a reason for people not to use Creator's Might. I've seen multiple people state they don't use Creator's Might for that excact reason specificly when mentioning Amon. Ryilan That surprises me, since I've never seen Amon played with such a unit in Mk III. Not before the release of the Creator's Might theme force either.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 16:47:29 GMT
oncomingstorm - I love the child-like attempt to not post profanity. It's strikingly hilarious coming from what I loosely assume is an adult. How can I be a victim when I don't play the theme or the caster in question? I'm just defending against insane, biased, and unreasonable complaints. Not just yours. If you win against it all the time why does it need to be nerfed? It obviously isn't over powering, just good. Battlegroup themes exist because battlegroup casters exists. In terms of Oracles nothing about the list is an aspect of power that Legion cannot field outside of that theme. So there is nothing you can pin down and say "this is the problem with this list" in regards to faction, bonuses, or models. Especially if you compare it to other factions. To try and resolve this conflict we (everyone) need to pin point and define exactly where the theme crosses the line, make sure it is legitimately a fault of the theme, then we can move forward in trying to resolve the issue. If it's still the perception of "no brainer upgrade" it can easily be written off as "That''s how PP intended it to be". They specifically wanted to give battlegroup themes to be played as such. Why else would they put them out? Contrary to popular belief they aren't actually trying to ruin the game.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 17, 2017 17:04:04 GMT
Yes, magical territory - it's "supposed" that the nyss are researching magic in other lands. [rant] But that has nothing to do with balancing the theme. Half the people are arguing EVERYONE needs a heavy spam theme. But you're arguing that ONE caster in ONE faction with ONE theme to make ONE list is raising absolute hell. So then why don't we make everyone happy by removing Fyanna and Harkevich from the game entirely. They are the only ones who ever play in theme and make things "unthematic" or broken. Problem solved Or maybe people should actually field things that can boost to hit or make things stationary and see that Fyanna falls the f- apart at the slightest tech. Do you really think Sorscha cares if I have 16 Def? What about Circle with cheap access to doppler bark. Or shadow bind. Or knockdown the caster who doesn't have the serpentine rule... [/rant] Fyanna is a disjointed caster that barely has 1 good trick. She has counters in every faction. People are absolutely unwilling to use said counters. So Fyanna gets played. I never claimed Fyanna + flying beasts was broken. It's undeniably a good combo, like a lot of other things across factions. My problem is with Fyanna + flying beasts + up to 20pts free stuff for taking those beasts + other special rules. Why are themes making already good lists better?My answer is: because some factions have near broken stuff and some were overnerfed during transition period. Simple as that. Look at this as Legion having it's overcosted beasts balanced by free solos. And yes, we also can be competitive and nasty. The time Legion was one trick pony faction of assassination attempts is finally over and I believe we will get more things you wont like. Thing about Fyanna2 is she is our only answer to shooting lists. Those free Helions are crucial to make squishy beasts survive. Still, it's not silver bullet, but it's better than before. You know, when competitively we were C-tier faction. Personally I believe Fyanna2 Oracles is not meta bending. It's more of knee-jerk reaction, like when Hellmouths were released. You remember that absolutelly broken, completelly unfair unit, right? You might've forgotten, not many people are playing them right now. Time will tell if I'm right. After BE CiD who knows how things will settle?
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 17, 2017 17:21:52 GMT
Everyone, play nice. Stop making personal attacks.
Ryilan
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 17, 2017 17:30:23 GMT
oncomingstorm - I love the child-like attempt to not post profanity. It's strikingly hilarious coming from what I loosely assume is an adult. There's actually a profanity filter. If you write the F-word, it shows up as Firetruck.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 17, 2017 17:30:55 GMT
oncomingstorm - I love the child-like attempt to not post profanity. It's strikingly hilarious coming from what I loosely assume is an adult. We have a word filter for a reason.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 17, 2017 17:48:23 GMT
oncomingstorm - I love the child-like attempt to not post profanity. It's strikingly hilarious coming from what I loosely assume is an adult. There's actually a profanity filter. If you write the F-word, it shows up as Firetruck. It's my favorite Firetrucking profanity filter.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 17, 2017 19:11:44 GMT
Even with Sevy2 i'd use a unit simply so i have a target for Holy Ward. I never stated however you need to use a unit to play Jack heavy. Just that it's a reason for people not to use Creator's Might. I've seen multiple people state they don't use Creator's Might for that excact reason specificly when mentioning Amon. Ryilan That surprises me, since I've never seen Amon played with such a unit in Mk III. Not before the release of the Creator's Might theme force either. I've seen Sevy2 both with Idrians and in Creators Might.
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