Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 11, 2017 20:01:57 GMT
Zuriel doesn't need fixing, he has his niche with the Twins either together or apart.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 11, 2017 20:29:50 GMT
I too think, Zuriel is in an okay place with his bonded casters, though I wish he got Parry with Rhyas, but that'd almost definitely be broken.
So just a quick, informal poll, would people rather see a heavy nephilim be a cheap, bargain heavy, ie PS16 cap with Fury3 at around 15pst, or a force multiplier for other nephilim/warriors in CoD theme?
Personally, while it's hard to turn down a budget beast, think it'd be more interesting to see a development of Nephilim society within the greater Legion society.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on Jun 12, 2017 15:03:23 GMT
I'd personally like to see a synergistic force multiplier to give a bigger reason to make a CotD list not led by Kryssa. I really love the look of Nephilim aesthetically and some of them have some neat tools. I do still think we need a budget beast that can be an alternative to the Neraph but I'd like to see something like a baby carnivean or something in that slot - there's too much potential for force multiplication for Nephilim both mechanically and from a lore perspective.
Also I feel like Zuriel is okay now, even outside Twins. Abby1/2 can make him shine (though Abby2 makes everyone shine), he's not bad with Kallus2 for spreading continuous fire. Not awful under Fyanna either - overtake and her feat can be great for his kit, and Fury with combo strike is pretty legit.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jun 12, 2017 17:36:53 GMT
Maybe we could get a Nephilim Commander that gives orders to Nephilim, giving them various abilities? Sort of like a Nephilim choir, but beef?
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 12, 2017 17:45:46 GMT
Rather than make decent combat Nephilim that would make Soldier even more useless I would prefer actually fixing him to the point he has a purpouse. Either by droping his price or giving him something more to compensate his mediocre Pow (like blessed on his sword). Before you start saying he is in a good place let me state my firm belief that he is trash piece having no place in any competitive list worth mentioning. He can't compete neither with Raek nor Neraph. I've played him because I like the models but he acomplishes nothing worth his points and have tons of issues with no real benefits (like Sevy2 making him almoust obsolete).
I don't want to sound whiny but CotD looks like theme created because they had feel the quota without having time to test it. So they've created something so weak that it wont blow into their face because of some spam or interaction. Limiting BG to light support pieces (not counting two characters) make sure it won't be the case.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 12, 2017 18:09:41 GMT
I have to disagree with your assessment on Soldiers. I personally prefer the Soldier the Neraph in most situations. They're threat range is similar, and they're damage output point for point is roughly similar. I'd rather have the Soldier's Precision Strike over the Neraph's various utility abilities. Also, the low PS is more indicative of the PP's problem with capping combat lights at base PS13. Correct me if I'm wrong, is there a light beast or jack in game that has native PS14+?
On the topic of CotD, I'm not gonna pretend I know what's going on in the heads of PP, but is there any other theme that puts as much restriction on warbeasts/jacks as the legion ones? Effectively no heavies in one and flyers only in the other. The only ones I can think of are Wolds in Circle and one of the I think Cygnar themes that required shooting jacks.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 12, 2017 18:27:57 GMT
I strongly dissagree. Soldier is reliant on it's initial for damage output, precision strike is useless against warbeasts, monstrosities and jacks when there are mechanics around. Neraph can: - kill annoying solo(sentry stone)/light (bonejacks scale) and cheat trade with sprint - assassinate casters thanks to reliable autohit mechanism - push heavies out of zones with beatback. All three won me games. I won't get into stuff like 14 Def and Serpentine. Soldier is nowhere near Neraph. And if I lack points - I take Raek instead. If you can make them work I envy you. I believe that they're not played competitively is not a coincidence though. Don't want to sound rude or condescending, it's just my assesment. I'm also 100% on board about our themes being the most restrictive.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 12, 2017 18:50:17 GMT
The soldier is a terrible inefficient toolkit designed to do one single thing well... if he had the Scythean's animus
3 fury = 1 to charge, 1 to cast animi, 1 to boost the hit. That's it. He would carve out a cortex or a spirit spiral and prevent you from fixing it, period. He doesn't buy extra attacks. He doesn't mulch troops. He could have a single job, do it well, then likely die a horrible death.
I'd pay the 9 points if he had that combination. But he doesn't and Overtake fails him so terribly hard it's not funny.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 12, 2017 19:11:23 GMT
cainuslupus
No offense taken, I'll just accept that we disagree on some points. I concede that soldiers are less useful vs beasts and that I forgot about Sprint. It's probably slightly in favor of the Neraph's beat back, but the Soldier still has a MAT7 slam for scenario play.
However, I don't think coil is that useful on the Neraph due to the combination of Fury3 and innate MAT7. I much rather just buy more attacks then boost the Tail, because is you're banking on coil you'd not risk MAT7 missing on DEF14+ casters, leaving you with 2 unboosted attacks unless you charge for free. If it were Fury 4, I'd be completely on your side due to the possibilities that get opened up.
Finally, I'm not trying to say that the Soldier is great and is my star player, oddly enough it's my Bloodseer who has that distinction, but I think that he does 1 job, cripple systems, well enough that I take him when I want something to perform that 1 job. (P.S. I know Warlords are a thing, but they're currently theme locked and much squishier.)
@forever_Blight I'd love if the Scythean and Soldier switched animi. The Scythean would love being able to mulch through units, y'know like it was intended to in Mk3 with rules like thresher and murderous, and the Soldier would love to keep stuff crippled.
With MAT7 against a heavy, you probably won't even need to boost to hit against most targets. You could try for some extra damage and maybe cripple two systems.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 12, 2017 19:38:44 GMT
Neraph is great assassination tool under Abby2 and any other caster that provides him with +2 Mat swing. Against Def 16 caster I need to roll 7 on three dice (9 without buff). Then goes one boosted Pow 13 and three Pow 15. It can kill squisher caster and finish off those more resilient.
People who know this play safely behind or overcommit killing Neraph. I have advantage both ways.
I tried Soldier. I love both models and have three (two metal and one plastic). He sucks on the table though, despite my attempts to field him. He is toolbox of questionable utility. He needs something that will give him purpouse. Blessed or just magic weapon for example. Suddenly he may be decent against Ghost Fleet and Cygnar. He doesn't need much, just an direction.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 12, 2017 20:08:54 GMT
Well, let's hope there's a Nephilim CID in the not too distant future where we can pursue this discussion.
Back to the main topic, what does everyone think PP has in mind for Nephilim, especially in the context of the CotD theme? Are we supposed to "spam" them and try to use buffs and the slight points difference to trade up? Are they utility pieces you take to answer a need like our other lights? Another idea that someone previously suggested that they're meant to be a screen to support our infantry, particularly the WM variety.
As they currently stand, I think they're supposed to be specialists since they're divergent each with one thing they're(supposed) to be good at. However, Unyielding as their blanket theme buff as well as the list restrictions seems to hint at something else.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 12, 2017 21:56:28 GMT
Honestly, I believe it's terrible and lazy theme force. It's no gameplay value, opens no new options and is not fluffy, smart, fun nor interresting. Free points comes from spamming Nephilim most if which are - as you've mentioned - specialists. Other benefits are also weak. What's gutting is lack of Seraph, Naga or Forsakens. 11" of Soldiers charge is outthreatened by many lists and they can't take the charge, unyelding or not. Most of the time it's better to play out of theme.
I have nothing against fun, thematic tiers. CotD is probably the worst theme available right now, which seems as wasted potential.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jun 12, 2017 22:12:35 GMT
Agreed that CoD is far too restrictive - particularly when you look at Warmachine themes with the vast majority being restricted to "non-character warjacks" - that stings quite a bit.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Jun 13, 2017 8:10:01 GMT
To sum up ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) CoD is crappy and won't se play but we can't have tanky nephilim anymore because that will be broken i CoD ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Love such situations. First thing to do with this theme is to switch free points for taking infantry. Allow Wasps and all lessers and at least Bethayne would be happy ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 14, 2017 11:29:44 GMT
To sum up ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) CoD is crappy and won't se play but we can't have tanky nephilim anymore because that will be broken i CoD ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Love such situations. First thing to do with this theme is to switch free points for taking infantry. Allow Wasps and all lessers and at least Bethayne would be happy ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) You can take lessers, it would need at least lights and Seraph. Tanking with Nephilims is ridiculous idea.
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