SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Jun 2, 2017 17:21:48 GMT
1) Extreme spam: Some stuff gets retarded at one point, FA: U is bad for a lot of things IMHO. Can you name 5 things that get spammed beyond the point of retardation? 1) Marauders 2) Rockets 3) Themes life Defenders of Ios with 4 units of Halberdiers 4) Ghost Fleet with min units for max Weapons Attachments 5) Hunters with Sloan I didn't try that hard, some stuff might be just very strong not OP, but you get the point.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 2, 2017 18:24:01 GMT
Can you name 5 things that get spammed beyond the point of retardation? 1) Marauders 2) Rockets 3) Themes life Defenders of Ios with 4 units of Halberdiers 4) Ghost Fleet with min units for max Weapons Attachments 5) Hunters with Sloan I didn't try that hard, some stuff might be just very strong not OP, but you get the point. One of them isn't FA: U, so not really an example of why/how FA: U is bad for things. That aside, other than (maybe) Marauders I'm not seeing any real problem with any of them. Strong is fine. Strong is what we want.
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Post by flamigant on Jun 2, 2017 18:24:25 GMT
Can you name 5 things that get spammed beyond the point of retardation? 1) Marauders 2) Rockets 3) Themes life Defenders of Ios with 4 units of Halberdiers 4) Ghost Fleet with min units for max Weapons Attachments 5) Hunters with Sloan I didn't try that hard, some stuff might be just very strong not OP, but you get the point. You forgot Dervishes in Creator's might but ssssshh they are only playable with Amon so hush
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 2, 2017 21:41:50 GMT
1) Marauders 2) Rockets 3) Themes life Defenders of Ios with 4 units of Halberdiers 4) Ghost Fleet with min units for max Weapons Attachments 5) Hunters with Sloan I didn't try that hard, some stuff might be just very strong not OP, but you get the point. You forgot Dervishes in Creator's might but ssssshh they are only playable with Amon so hush Also Chargers with Caine3, Griffons with Vyros1/2 (not problematic, but strong) and Neraphs/Flying warbeasts with Fyanna. However, I don't think FA is the answer - any issue should be solved by toning down 1 piece of the problem interaction and going from there.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 3, 2017 11:35:04 GMT
(not problematic, but strong) Exactly what we want models and lists to be.
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Post by zerfius on Jun 6, 2017 16:44:47 GMT
As a new player (started in February) I want through and read this entire thread. I wanted to be sure that the game that I just made a significant investment in with money and time was not on the way out. Based on reading it, I do not think that it is. It seems to be that some local metas are shrinking while others are gaining. But more importantly, I think a few people have hit the nail on the head with the how to treat new players when entering the game. My experience was that I went to a local place (not a game store) that I found on Meetup that posted about board game. I wanted something to do outside of the house on a regular basis, so thought I would check it out. When I got there, I saw the wargaming table set up in the back. I milled about for a few minutes until someone engaged me in conversation. He explained a little bit of the premise of the game and I continued to watch his table, and then went to see some others.
One player said he was also new (a little over a year) and explained as much as he could. He did not want to be the FNG any more so he had a stake in getting me to play. I came back the following week and he and another guy explained much more about the game to me. I came to find out later he was a press ganger. At this point, the former FNG offered that if I came back the following week, he would bring his backup army and we could play a small game to better get a feel for the game.
Obviously, I liked it. The things that they did to encourage me was to not get hung up on what the models or faction did, but on the models I liked. They were honest enough with me to tell me that I would lose.... a lot.... and for a long time. So I should at least enjoy looking at what I was going to be getting beat with. They directed me towards places to find used models, and when I would show them what I was looking at buying, they would tell me if the models would at least play together.
From there, they have treated me well in the games I have played. The first few games if I made a small mistake they would let me take it back. After a few games I no longer accepted this because if I make a mistake, I expect to have to live with it. That is how I learn. I am going to play a tournament with this group next weekend and while I expect to be totally throttled by the opposition, I still look forward to the opportunity to play competitive games.
TL, DR - I think the important parts to get new people involved are as follows: 1) Talk to them when they come in - had no one said a word to me, I likely would have left and never gotten started 2) Let them demo with your models 3) Help them with purchase decisions - this is a big investment for most people, they want to be comfortable - this doesn't mean bashing models cause they suck, but making sure they buy models that work well together in a list 4) Be patient and friendly during their first games - the new player is likely going to lose, even if you let them cast a spell on a unit in their back ark, just let them play 5) Understand what the new player is looking for - I am a very competitive person by nature. I like to win. But, I like to win because I played the game correctly and won on my own merits. For me, I am ok with being called on the rules because when I win, I do not want there to be a "But". Also, I have been playing 75 points from the start. Yes, it is long but that is the norm, so it is what I want to play.
Anyhow, thats my several cents. Thanks for reading!
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Post by beardmonk on Jul 3, 2017 11:32:05 GMT
Sorry for thread necromancy but I felt impelled to follow up on this. The state of WM/H in our local area is fairly dire now a month or so after my original response to this tread.
Our little personal gaming friends group has managed to re-establish itself (new houses, new schedule). However only 3 out of 6 of our group are actually playing atm. One guy hasn’t/wont update his cards from the ones he bought at the release of Mk3 and so playing against him is tricky (when he can be bothered to play). Our Troll player is focusing on 40K again and likes watching but said he isn’t prepared to buy anymore PP product for a while. My mate who is one of the three active players is getting really hacked off with the sheer volume of changes to the game. Every time he comes to play something has been amended and he doesn’t have the ability to keep up to date with things. He hopes that things will settle down but he isn’t enjoying it all that much.
In the gaming club I attend once or twice a month WM/H has been effectively eradicated. We used to have a good solid 8 players each night playing a diverse range of factions. Attendance at Smogcon and competitions all over London, SE and rest of the UK. Now, we struggle to get more that 2 of us playing on a night if our diaries line up. Our former PG who continued to run games and events has just very publically declared that he is selling all of his stuff and leaving the game. Main issues being, “thememachine”, volume of changes, dislike of the new SR. On the flip side, 40K and other GW games make up 90% of all the games played in the club again. Smattering of Malifaux and other games. But WM/H, nothing to be seen. The mishandling of Mk3 made the game “weak” at the time that GW came roaring back.
It also seems that many major faces in the WM/H world, prominent players are leaving the game. This could just be a changing of the guard that happens throughout the life of any game. But it really feels like WM/H is on a downward trajectory. I was going to be jumping into trolls this year. I am holding off for another 6 months to see how things develop.
I love the game but im feeling really depressed and unclear about the future. At this rate I will have nobody to play with if things don’t get “sorted”.
What are people seeing now, almost a year after Mk3 release? Any happy news to give me a lift?
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Post by Azahul on Jul 3, 2017 11:51:05 GMT
What are people seeing now, almost a year after Mk3 release? Any happy news to give me a lift? I'm seeing a game that is better balanced than it has ever been. There are no major boogeymen in the meta. There are fewer hard counters than ever before. The internal balance is going from strength to strength as well. Models that were terrible on release are no longer being left to languish until an edition change. Battle Engines are seeing play, which is stunning considering their rarity since their release back in early Mark 2. Meanwhile the new SR isn't even out yet, and we don't know what's changed, but the initial spoilers seem like they make scenario wins a real possibility while also really clamping down on the strength of control 'casters, which seems like a boon for new players in particular. I don't know if I agree with the "too many changes" issue. That's only a potential problem if you play CID games. If you don't, we have models change every six months. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable price to pay for a game that is able to correct balance issues to ensure few truly bad models and no single oppressive meta bending combos. Locally, my meta just announced sign-ups for a teams tournament later this year (8 teams of 5, so 40 players in attendance). So that has everyone pretty excited. I've seen a couple of new people start in just the last few weeks too, and it's always cheery to see an already large meta growing. Honestly, one of the biggest problems we're having locally is none of the game stores are large enough to host full events anymore... It's not 100% roses. The Long Gunner debacle is something I really hope will be a one-off, and I'm really hoping they make some last minute changes during internal testing. But honestly the game feels like a better game than it has ever been. I'm really excited for the future.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 3, 2017 12:03:08 GMT
To be honest I see WM&H mk3 as a golden age of my "competitive" (as not only going to competitions but the game being an intelectual challenge in general) just like I see 6th ed WH40K the golden age of my narrative/creative gaming (huge, multiplayer battles, campaigns all the time)
The game is getting more and more balanced with every errata which is the prime thing that made me move from GW games to WM&H. I love how I never lose games because of what I bought or didn't buy or because of freak luck. Just like MrMallorian from YT channel, who can take lists made by his little son to a tournament and still do decently, I feel like I can take almost anything and make it work in the right combination. Actually, if there were more events where I live I would have already taken a totally randomised lists to one of them to see how many games I can win.
Man, it's such a far cry from what I am used to have in WFB or WH40K...
I like new SR because it puts a limit on OP control casters' point and click 3CP-feat-2CPwin non-engagement playstyle. I like how CiD + Will Pagani make things reasonable instead of absurdly OP or nerfed to the ground. I like how, even if something OP slips through the net it isn't going to haunt the game for the next 4 years or so.
Yeah, there are some things I don't like, like themes stiffling creative list building. But all in all, best times!
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 3, 2017 12:45:49 GMT
The local store when I found it was around 11 people not including myself and my wife. It's now down to 2 regulars. One of which is a new player that just got loads of armies off ebay and such. (Has armies from all but Legion and Merc/Minnion i think)
So is it on a decline at my locale? Absolutely. Why? Because it seems those people were hard pressed to accept change. There were a few that picked up battle boxes and then fell out of it for an existing hobby. I see that more as a financial limitation than a failure of the game. But for the Vet players that were huge into the competitive MK2, things changed and they were not happy. So instead of trying to enjoy the game their focus was on what they lost or why MK2 was better.
It's okay though. Even if the game goes under I'll find something positive. Like dirt cheap models on shelves and armies on ebay. I'll buy up what I want and me and my wife can play whatever we want. Or I can continue to be weird and play solitaire.
One thing I don't understand though is the complaint about themes. If you are mad that it causes competitive lists to all look the same, I have bad news. They pretty much all did before themes hit. That's how the meta goes. You find the absolute most optimal stuff and stray from anything else. Every Legion post at the start of MK3 was "look at my Lylyth 3, Abby 2, or Thagrosh 1 list/pair. Tell me how to make it look more like yours"
If you're mad at seeing it a casual level, then I have to ask why are you mad? It's meant to be a casual game. If that's what's fun to the other player, that's fine. If themes aren't fun for you, don't play them. I can't imagine 10-15 points of support makes any theme list auto-win against everything else in the game that's played outside of theme.
I specifically play Kryssa the most out of theme and she has a 6-0 w/l ratio by herself (Once I found the best list for my playstyle). So I know it is absolutely possible to play outside of theme and have good games.
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