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Post by Azuresun on May 29, 2017 22:54:52 GMT
It made me sad to see how little variety there was. Basically all the circle players ran almost identical Una2 lists, Cygnar players with the stormlances, Khador with loads of cheap heavies etc. I've always found these things go in phases. In a lot of competitive scenes, one or two players hit on a good idea and then everyone either a) follows it or b) techs against it. Storm Lances are already on the way out, infantry is becoming more common...and the cycle will continue. I think if the game is the same now in a year's time, then there could be a problem. But by then I think there will be a lot of changes, maybe even seeing Ghost Fleet start to take a step back. The problem I'm having is that when you get into the high power levels, the nature of the game changes. It often seems to boil down to "do you happen to have the one or two counters for this gimmick", and if the answer is no, then I don't feel like I needed to show up. Especially with scenario fading away in SR2017, there isn't much working around 11 immortal Ferox or Fyanna doing a double alpha with DEF 17 dodging beasts, or Vlad1 spamming Rocketeers and 10pt jacks with bigger numbers than you, you either have the counter or you can just pack up there.
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Post by pangurban on May 29, 2017 23:46:04 GMT
I think the lack of varied formats is to blame. Or rather the community's reluctance to admit other, especially smaller, formats as equally worthy of organising events and playing on a regular basis. 75pts/2 lists is very daunting to newcomers and having no alternative to it may (and most likely is) offputting to many of them. It has multiple barriers of entry - money, time spent painting, taking in so many rules, time spent playing such games. A set of comp/limitations designed to make small points games more balanced , similar to WFB/WH40K Border Patrol/Combat Patrol would be really welcome. As would be not stigmatising it as "not a proper way to play the game" and avoiding events with such formats because they are "not serious enough". I used to prefer playing 35 points back when 50 was the norm, and I prefer 50 points now. In terms of playing the game that's really not appreciably less daunting for new players though. It's less models (and less Colossals, insofar as that's a problem nowadays), but tactically it's just as complex and it's still quite a large number of models potentially. The problem with comp limitations for even smaller games is that they arguably need to be very restricting to work, and at that point you're probably telling the player he can't play all the models he wants and possibly that he needs to buy models he doesn't. Journeyman leagues do something like that and in many cases players only find the battlebox requirement palatable because it's cheap. Finally, I think the essential issue is that when playing against new players you need to adjust what you bring and/or what you do period, compared to your competitive games. I don't really see alternative competitive formats change that. They might provide a more accessible competitive experience for new players, but for pickup games at the local venue they won't matter much.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 30, 2017 6:17:50 GMT
I've always found these things go in phases. In a lot of competitive scenes, one or two players hit on a good idea and then everyone either a) follows it or b) techs against it. Storm Lances are already on the way out, infantry is becoming more common...and the cycle will continue. I think if the game is the same now in a year's time, then there could be a problem. But by then I think there will be a lot of changes, maybe even seeing Ghost Fleet start to take a step back. The problem I'm having is that when you get into the high power levels, the nature of the game changes. It often seems to boil down to "do you happen to have the one or two counters for this gimmick", and if the answer is no, then I don't feel like I needed to show up. Especially with scenario fading away in SR2017, there isn't much working around 11 immortal Ferox or Fyanna doing a double alpha with DEF 17 dodging beasts, or Vlad1 spamming Rocketeers and 10pt jacks with bigger numbers than you, you either have the counter or you can just pack up there. The game isn't worth playing out because of some ferox or def 17 angels? Jeez, that's where the game starts to get really fun! When people push their mods to thr limits and you try your hardest to win.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 30, 2017 7:12:05 GMT
Just as it was in the 2016 pack. That didn't make it any more popular, or stop it from being treated as a lesser way to play the game. It was also fairly easy to break, and that hasn't changed. This. It's not like PP isn't trying ot propose new, "entry-type" formats. It's the community not doing its part in treating it as a legit way to play the game and concentrating only on playing the same thing over and over again. On the other hand, those formats aren't actually the best IMO. For a small point format to be relatively balanced, it needs to have strict limitations on the strongest models, ones whose presence is capable to easily skew the match. Combat/Border Patrol did just that (limit of number of units total to avoid skews of cheap things,Rare and Special units/heavy vehicles/warmachines disallowed, only 1 character etc). That's why it worked so well. The problem with WM&H in this respect is, the most powerful and "skewy" models in the game are the ubiquitous warcasters/warlocks.
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Post by Pikaed on May 30, 2017 7:24:04 GMT
Play 35 or 50 points games. The game is much more better and enjoyable at that level. It is quick, it is very tactical. I really do not understand why people take 75 points as a dogma.
I have been playing only 35 points games since MK3 came out. It is wonderful, really. Quick play, several games, if you lose you can always try again. The only problem is that you do not have much space in your list for infantry so, if you really want so much infantry, you can try 50.
Of course some casters are better at 35 than they are at 75. But I think this is general: others are better at 75.
In my opinion, warmachine should be played in low point games. It is an unforgiving game, hence you should be able to play several times per night.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 30, 2017 9:40:04 GMT
The problem I'm having is that when you get into the high power levels, the nature of the game changes. It often seems to boil down to "do you happen to have the one or two counters for this gimmick", and if the answer is no, then I don't feel like I needed to show up. Especially with scenario fading away in SR2017, there isn't much working around 11 immortal Ferox or Fyanna doing a double alpha with DEF 17 dodging beasts, or Vlad1 spamming Rocketeers and 10pt jacks with bigger numbers than you, you either have the counter or you can just pack up there. The game isn't worth playing out because of some ferox or def 17 angels? Jeez, that's where the game starts to get really fun! When people push their mods to thr limits and you try your hardest to win. I can see his point. DEF 17 dodging Angelii isn't pushing models to their limits, its just abusing a feat and there are only so many things you can do bar rely on the luck of the dice. On the other hand Fyannas feat is defensive so I don't see the issue. It's supposed to make it difficult to kill them and the double-alpha Angelii isn't anything new. Interactions that are super simple like that aren't "pushing" anything. Its just a feat and there's no skill to using it. Vlad1 rocket spam however I would consider slightly more "pushing it to the limit" because it requires target prioritising and planning stuff out in advance and being careful to keep the rockets hidden from the enemies ranged attacks. On the opponents side Winter Guard are pretty easy to kill. They aren't using a feat to become unkillable or anything. The main stumbling point is coming unprepared to fight it. But it's not like other armies don't have the tools. All the armies can cracks army and most have access to Stealth unit, which is something WG have no way to get around.
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Post by kineath on May 30, 2017 12:16:25 GMT
The older this game gets, the more I feel it is like Rock Paper Scissors.
When I started with Hordes at the very beginning (2006?) I felt like everything could hurt anything. Any list could be beaten with good placement, strategy and wits. Now I feel there are too many things to take into consideration when I build a list.
Can I handle heavy gunlines? Can I handle heavy armor/hitbox skews? Can I handle recursion dudespam? Can I handle LoS blocking?
If I fail any of these questions, I might end up against a list I feel I have little chance against. For me that feels like a bad experience. (Same goes for the other way around though. I do not want to have the feeling my opponent didn't have a chance)
A month ago I made a "funzies" list against Ossrum bunny spam ....... didn't feel very satisfying. For me that is exactly the problem. Too many "no fun" matches. Forcing me to build certain lists just to even the playing field.
This is also in my opinion what keeps new players form starting to play.
Kineath
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Post by Azuresun on May 30, 2017 12:43:13 GMT
I can see his point. DEF 17 dodging Angelii isn't pushing models to their limits, its just abusing a feat and there are only so many things you can do bar rely on the luck of the dice. On the other hand Fyannas feat is defensive so I don't see the issue. It's supposed to make it difficult to kill them and the double-alpha Angelii isn't anything new. Interactions that are super simple like that aren't "pushing" anything. Its just a feat and there's no skill to using it. Vlad1 rocket spam however I would consider slightly more "pushing it to the limit" because it requires target prioritising and planning stuff out in advance and being careful to keep the rockets hidden from the enemies ranged attacks. On the opponents side Winter Guard are pretty easy to kill. They aren't using a feat to become unkillable or anything. The main stumbling point is coming unprepared to fight it. But it's not like other armies don't have the tools. All the armies can cracks army and most have access to Stealth unit, which is something WG have no way to get around. Yes, there's counters for all the power lists (apart from the cats, where my faction only has one grievous wounds attack, and all our CC is knockdown which they ignore, that's pretty much an auto-gg unless the Skorne player falls asleep at the wheel and gives an assassination chance on Makeda). The problem is that it very often seems that if you don't have that specific counter in the list that you happen to be playing against it, that's it. I don't mean it's a tough matchup that you can work around with clever tactics, I mean it's virtually decided after turn 2 if you didn't bring the right answer to whatever the skew on the other side of the table is.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 30, 2017 13:25:25 GMT
From my experience playing sr 2017 it's less punishing actually and limits skewing/spamming. In 2016 you and opponent have a big turn and battle in the center, the one who came out on top wins, so you maximize the big turn. In 2017 you usually need to play all 7 turns across spaced out objectives to win on mission. Have a 12" heavy spam bubble backed up by damage/protection feat? Good luck scoring more than 2 zones with it. Have a mean gunline? Well, new terrain rules actually put an obligatory something between you and me now. I had a few games where by 2016 rules I would lose due to horribly losing that big turn attrition exchange, but won by 2017 because I stuck to the end and managed to claw out a point or two.
I'd compare it to Malifaux, where you look for opportunities to get points and work for them rather than hulk smash opponent's list.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 30, 2017 14:18:36 GMT
As the conversation is developing, I feel like making the sideboard more commonplace is the way to go. It's impossible and unhealthy to be able to counter everything, unless you're Haley(jk), but if you can swap out some things, it allows for more niche models to find their place. Another alternative is to promote a 3 list standard. One of the biggest differences for me coming from 40k back in 5e/6e was how common it is to pack 2 distinct lists drop them into their appropriate prey.
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Post by pangurban on May 30, 2017 14:53:08 GMT
As the conversation is developing, I feel like making the sideboard more commonplace is the way to go. It's impossible and unhealthy to be able to counter everything, unless you're Haley(jk), but if you can swap out some things, it allows for more niche models to find their place. Another alternative is to promote a 3 list standard. One of the biggest differences for me coming from 40k back in 5e/6e was how common it is to pack 2 distinct lists drop them into their appropriate prey. Both, but particularly 3-list standard, are terribly newbie-unfriendly though.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 30, 2017 15:09:55 GMT
3-list is not great imo.
It promotes hard skews since you put the opponent into a 3-list version of list-chicken, and he only has a 1-in-3 change of picking his appropriate counter.
-und_ed
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Jun 2, 2017 15:20:51 GMT
In my local meta, we lost many regular players and gaines a few occassionnal players. We went from being an almost self sustaining meta able to host events with 12 players from town to not running an event since march.
While I'm having a blast playing Mk3, there are 2 things that I dislike.
1) Extreme spam: Some stuff gets retarded at one point, FA: U is bad for a lot of things IMHO. 2) Theme forces: It was seen as bad before, I see it as worse now. Unless you have an OP theme, you get to play a whole other game. 20 points of free stuff is close to the EE level of absurd we once had.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 2, 2017 16:55:24 GMT
1) Extreme spam: Some stuff gets retarded at one point, FA: U is bad for a lot of things IMHO. Can you name 5 things that get spammed beyond the point of retardation?
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Post by skittles on Jun 2, 2017 17:05:07 GMT
1) Extreme spam: Some stuff gets retarded at one point, FA: U is bad for a lot of things IMHO. Can you name 5 things that get spammed beyond the point of retardation? 1) ban theme forces 2) FA:U op 3) Dear PP, Rock OP, paper is fine; signed Scissors 4) I don't play this game anymore, but... 5) doom doom doom!
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