wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on May 19, 2017 13:27:44 GMT
There's plenty of advice you can give without being negative. Ask why they like that model, suggest models that synergize well with it. If they ask about power levels you can obviously make suggestions, maybe recommend stuff that does what they like more efficiently. What you shouldn't do is answer the question "what do you think of these guys?" With "oh this are garbage buy this other thing instead". Power level matters so little to new players (who are going to be learning anyway) and the actual power curve of Warmachine is so much shallower than people like to claim from tournament results that turning new players off from a thing they like because it's perceived to be better is just counterproductive. Help them weigh pros and cons of different options, talk about why they like what they like (gameplay? Fluff? Art?). Talk about why you like the game. But please, please, don't introduce a new person to the hobby with negativity. I personally agree with you. But I know from conversations from people before that they belive, with all their heart, that the most important thing by far about any model or unit is how the community perceives its power level. And that if you don't tell people about it the first chance you get, you are actively deceiving and tricking them into wasting their money. The conversations I remember reading were about Manowars. The veterans of the game had seen it a hundred times... a new player comes in and buys a box of Manowars. They field them in the game, and are disgusted, and throw them away and never come back. So now, the veterans try and save those players. If they see someone new trying to buy Manowars, the veterans would run up to them and go "nooooooo don't do it! for the love of god put it down!" I'm exaggerating for effect, but the point is 100% that. The veterans knew that any new player buying Manowars would quit after a few games. Experience told them this. When people feel this way, talk all you want about not being negative. It won't work, because to those people, being negative is actually being positive and helping people.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 20, 2017 18:15:11 GMT
The thing about that is that maybe some times it helps but more often than not you just end up taking the new player out of paying the game. Like they were really interested in that model and the veterams are like yo dawg it sucks. Like when you're a new player and people are like 50% of the models you're interested in are not worth it then maybe as a new player you're like "i guess the game is not worth it then"
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 20, 2017 18:21:45 GMT
"i guess the game is not worth it then" Isn't that what people do in Pyramid Schemes? At least now I can tell with confidence that PP is working to fix everything.
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Post by darkshroud on May 23, 2017 13:50:19 GMT
"i guess the game is not worth it then" Isn't that what people do in Pyramid Schemes? At least now I can tell with confidence that PP is working to fix everything. it just took them a year to fix cryx. but they did! im usually not a fan of, just wait for the next release to fix stuff or wait for theme forces. bc i think thats a terrible balance mechanic. but with CID, it at least has a chance to maybe be possible itll be fixed. i just wish PP gave us their plans on CID for the next couple months. whats a couple cycles out. i think it would help.
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Post by Anonymous on May 23, 2017 13:55:59 GMT
Isn't that what people do in Pyramid Schemes? At least now I can tell with confidence that PP is working to fix everything. it just took them a year to fix cryx. but they did! im usually not a fan of, just wait for the next release to fix stuff or wait for theme forces. bc i think thats a terrible balance mechanic. but with CID, it at least has a chance to maybe be possible itll be fixed. i just wish PP gave us their plans on CID for the next couple months. whats a couple cycles out. i think it would help. They typically do through solicitation. Not everything lines up, but it's there. Grymkin happened around their solicitations. We've been told Trenchers and Northkin are coming, but haven't solicited so I expect we'll see those show up soon too. Battle Engines and Banes were what broke that mold and it seemed like a welcome, community oriented decision.
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Post by cainuslupus on May 23, 2017 20:59:50 GMT
My meta grew by a few players in Mk 3.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 23, 2017 22:02:31 GMT
The thing about that is that maybe some times it helps but more often than not you just end up taking the new player out of paying the game. Like they were really interested in that model and the veterams are like yo dawg it sucks. Like when you're a new player and people are like 50% of the models you're interested in are not worth it then maybe as a new player you're like "i guess the game is not worth it then" No, don't blame the players. They're only telling the truth. Blame PP for having poor balance. If a model is bad, then it isn't my job to trick new players into thinking otherwise. Hopefully, we'll be moving towards a game where every model has a place. We are not there now, and we've never been. I'm not going to tell a new Cygnar player that precursor knights are good with a straight face. If that keeps them out of the game, fine. I am not a PP employee, nor a games salesman. It is not my job to rip people off. And, sure, I might get a new player for our meta by withholding advice. They'll just leave after they a couple hundred bucks on a weak army. So now they're dissappointed and ripped off.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 24, 2017 0:08:03 GMT
The thing about that is that maybe some times it helps but more often than not you just end up taking the new player out of paying the game. Like they were really interested in that model and the veterams are like yo dawg it sucks. Like when you're a new player and people are like 50% of the models you're interested in are not worth it then maybe as a new player you're like "i guess the game is not worth it then" No, don't blame the players. They're only telling the truth. Blame PP for having poor balance. If a model is bad, then it isn't my job to trick new players into thinking otherwise. Hopefully, we'll be moving towards a game where every model has a place. We are not there now, and we've never been. I'm not going to tell a new Cygnar player that precursor knights are good with a straight face. If that keeps them out of the game, fine. I am not a PP employee, nor a games salesman. It is not my job to rip people off. And, sure, I might get a new player for our meta by withholding advice. They'll just leave after they a couple hundred bucks on a weak army. So now they're dissappointed and ripped off. Calma te mija. I wasnt blaming anyone, players or designers. I was pointing out basic human behavior and explaining how maybe always telling new people to stay away from units that are not top competitive is not necessarily the best way to promote player retention.
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Post by GreatBigTree on May 24, 2017 1:02:37 GMT
I'm just starting out in Retribution, and I found it quite helpful to hear what people had to say, positive and negative, about what I was / am planning to purchase. For example, I wanted to buy riflemen. I was told straight up that other units were better, but I really liked them so I bought them, aware that they needed help from their various force multipliers to make them "effective." I was happy with that. I bought them knowing they were considered a weaker choice, but I knew.
I thought about buying Halberdiers, but heard how much better the Sentinels were. I looked, actually liked the Sentinel models better, so I bought them instead. I was glad to have been given the advice, as they are a strong unit and I like them anyhow. I hadn't really known how useful Arcanists would be [just starting, had no idea of the value of their abilities] but everyone swears up and down about them, so I made sure to purchase a couple.
I love the look of the Phoenix and Imperatus models, but Impy's too expensive right now, so I bought a Phoenix. People are down on the crowd control Online, but my store has plenty of infantry using people, so it should work out well... I hope. Either way, love the model, will play it anyhow.
And everyone was right about the value in the battle box. Fantastic. I bought one, and have another on order.
My point is that although I have been told some of my choices are on the weaker side, I'm ok with that. It didn't scare me off, I just need to play slightly off of what the Internet says to do, and that's ok. Having passionate people tell me their opinions, good and bad, about what I was thinking of buying gave me a good idea of what my army would play like, and helped shape my expectations.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 24, 2017 1:33:51 GMT
No, don't blame the players. They're only telling the truth. Blame PP for having poor balance. If a model is bad, then it isn't my job to trick new players into thinking otherwise. Hopefully, we'll be moving towards a game where every model has a place. We are not there now, and we've never been. I'm not going to tell a new Cygnar player that precursor knights are good with a straight face. If that keeps them out of the game, fine. I am not a PP employee, nor a games salesman. It is not my job to rip people off. And, sure, I might get a new player for our meta by withholding advice. They'll just leave after they a couple hundred bucks on a weak army. So now they're dissappointed and ripped off. Calma te mija. I wasnt blaming anyone, players or designers. I was pointing out basic human behavior and explaining how maybe always telling new people to stay away from units that are not top competitive is not necessarily the best way to promote player retention. Fair enough. I'm just saying that the players don't have a good alternative to straight honesty. It might not retain new players as well, but I won't tell someone that a model is strong when it ain't.
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Post by elladan52 on May 24, 2017 2:54:12 GMT
Calma te mija. I wasnt blaming anyone, players or designers. I was pointing out basic human behavior and explaining how maybe always telling new people to stay away from units that are not top competitive is not necessarily the best way to promote player retention. Fair enough. I'm just saying that the players don't have a good alternative to straight honesty. It might not retain new players as well, but I won't tell someone that a model is strong when it ain't. There's a broad gap between "Yeah, that model is good, so's that one, and that one too! You can't go wrong!" and "That model sucks, buy this one instead". The truth is important, and you shouldn't mislead players. But it's important to be humble enough to realize that both of the above attitudes can be misleading - not everything is top tier competitive, and not everything but the top is unplayable trash. Not all advice about what is and isn't competitive is good. Like anything in life, it's important to know the other person before giving them advice. Encourage them to seek out what they like, be it competitive models or pretty models or a mix of the two. I think if your advice isn't part of a broader conversation it isn't going to be good, no matter what it is. There are quite a lot of alternatives for those willing to take the time.
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Post by beardmonk on May 25, 2017 15:02:52 GMT
Its also interesting, as a listener to many WM/H podcasts, that almost all podcasts in the last month or so have asked the same questions in their programs. Is WM/H dying, where is the game atm, where is it heading, what is PP doing.
I really think that PP need to reflect on the noises coming from the community and start doing the following:
1) Find something to replace the PGs asap that gives you people to drive the community but doesn't open you up to Wizards of the Coast style lawsuits. They were the driving force behind most metas and groups. Now, without the support from the company, events are not being run, demos are not being organised etc. Guildball seem to be able to do it, why not PP?
2) Deliver the store/tournament support that was promised when the PGs were disbanded. I see no evidence of any store support for the game. Especially in a time when GW is rising phoenix like from its past 5 years of bad performance, stores need to have a reason to keep stocking the product.
3)Continue increasing the recognition of the hobby side of WM/H with the painting championships, best painted armies at tournaments etc.
4) Decent EU distribution and parts replacement service. I had yet another miss pack recently. 4-5 weeks later, I'm still waiting for my new part. things like that put people off a company. Also, many of the big money savers, all-in-one boxes are not available in the UK and Europe. Yet another barrier to people collecting and/or starting the game.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 25, 2017 19:14:44 GMT
I'm just starting out in Retribution, and I found it quite helpful to hear what people had to say, positive and negative, about what I was / am planning to purchase. For example, I wanted to buy riflemen. I was told straight up that other units were better, but I really liked them so I bought them, aware that they needed help from their various force multipliers to make them "effective." I was happy with that. I bought them knowing they were considered a weaker choice, but I knew. I thought about buying Halberdiers, but heard how much better the Sentinels were. I looked, actually liked the Sentinel models better, so I bought them instead. I was glad to have been given the advice, as they are a strong unit and I like them anyhow. I hadn't really known how useful Arcanists would be [just starting, had no idea of the value of their abilities] but everyone swears up and down about them, so I made sure to purchase a couple. I love the look of the Phoenix and Imperatus models, but Impy's too expensive right now, so I bought a Phoenix. People are down on the crowd control Online, but my store has plenty of infantry using people, so it should work out well... I hope. Either way, love the model, will play it anyhow. And everyone was right about the value in the battle box. Fantastic. I bought one, and have another on order. My point is that although I have been told some of my choices are on the weaker side, I'm ok with that. It didn't scare me off, I just need to play slightly off of what the Internet says to do, and that's ok. Having passionate people tell me their opinions, good and bad, about what I was thinking of buying gave me a good idea of what my army would play like, and helped shape my expectations. Ah, but here's the question; When you asked people about Riflemen how did they word their answer? Did they tell you they were not worth playing or did they tell you that there are better models but buy what you want? I'm not saying new players should be lied to, but the tone in which advice is delivered has a huge impact on whether or not they want to stick around.
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Post by Guest on May 25, 2017 20:24:52 GMT
Guildball seem to be able to do it, why not PP? That could be because Steamforged are based in the UK, and not the Sue-nited States.
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Post by pangurban on May 25, 2017 21:44:29 GMT
Guildball seem to be able to do it, why not PP? That could be because Steamforged are based in the UK, and not the Sue-nited States. And because they're smaller and younger. The financial risk is lower, and they need their Pundit program more to build up a larger customer base. I'm sure the difference in mentality matters, but it's also a very different equation to figure out.
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