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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 16, 2017 20:10:12 GMT
And that's wonderful for tournament players and aspiring tournament players, but it shouldn't have any relevance to new players. Unless someone is specifically joining the hobby in order to participate in tournaments (and the vast majority of them very likely aren't) then the performance of models at the latest big con should have zero bearing on the purchasing advice they get. Instead a lot of new players get beaten over the head with tournament meta data that just doesn't matter to them and gets in the way of being able to just enjoy joining the game. I've seen it drive people away and I've seen people dismiss Warmachine as a whole because of the reputation Warmachine players have as overly-aggressive, tournament-obsessed tryhards. That doesn't even mention certain minor internet personalities that have decided to use CID as an excuse to rant about how the game is dying and PP doesn't know what they're doing every chance they get. Then why give purchasing advice at all? If all of the models are good enough for casual play, then what real advice should be offered? When a new player asks about a list idea, should everyone just give em a thumbs up? On topic for the thread, WMH has had some serious growing pains from the eve of MKIII. I think the moves since then have mostly been good, but some metas died out. Hopefully, PP will find a way to replace the press gangers as a way to draw people in. There's plenty of advice you can give without being negative. Ask why they like that model, suggest models that synergize well with it. If they ask about power levels you can obviously make suggestions, maybe recommend stuff that does what they like more efficiently. What you shouldn't do is answer the question "what do you think of these guys?" With "oh this are garbage buy this other thing instead". Power level matters so little to new players (who are going to be learning anyway) and the actual power curve of Warmachine is so much shallower than people like to claim from tournament results that turning new players off from a thing they like because it's perceived to be better is just counterproductive. Help them weigh pros and cons of different options, talk about why they like what they like (gameplay? Fluff? Art?). Talk about why you like the game. But please, please, don't introduce a new person to the hobby with negativity.
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Post by pangurban on May 16, 2017 20:31:34 GMT
We have much more access to tournament results and lists than we used to. Finding out if your faction had done well at a prestigious event was done pretty much exclusively through waiting until someone who was there saw fit to make a post. Finding lists was a chore, and it was a treat to get to discuss what happened and how if luck would have it that the player in question wanted to talk about it in the faction forum. Lists and opinions on how they should be played or played against are found everywhere now. And that's wonderful for tournament players and aspiring tournament players, but it shouldn't have any relevance to new players. Unless someone is specifically joining the hobby in order to participate in tournaments (and the vast majority of them very likely aren't) then the performance of models at the latest big con should have zero bearing on the purchasing advice they get. Instead a lot of new players get beaten over the head with tournament meta data that just doesn't matter to them and gets in the way of being able to just enjoy joining the game. I've seen it drive people away and I've seen people dismiss Warmachine as a whole because of the reputation Warmachine players have as overly-aggressive, tournament-obsessed tryhards. There needs to be a balance. But that balance includes advice about which models work better too. New players certainly benefit from gameplay tips as well, but that alone doesn't cut it when they play lists that don't mesh properly and casters that are terrible for the matchup they're played into. At some point it's not just ok to point out that playing a melee infantry list with a jack caster against a ranged list that mulches infantry is never going to work, it's the right thing to do. And if that new player goes looking for better alternatives, not telling them what tends to do well seems silly.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 16, 2017 21:16:33 GMT
My experience has been otherwise. When I got in to 40k back in 2009 I thought Thousand Sons were cool. I asked about them and people told me "Yea, they're pretty cool but they're slow so you gotta be careful with them." Thats funny because most of my experience from 40k and WHFB has been the opposite. The moment a new book came out people found the most broken things and spammed them and anything that wasn't broken was deemed inferior. My best friend had a game of 40k last year after a break of about 4 years and his club told him Eldar Banshees (one of his favorite units) were trash. He played them anyway and destroyed his opponent. I also remember saltyness of WHFB daemon players in the switch from 7th to 8th. If you combined all the salt of the first few months of Mk3 it would look like a few grains on a tablecloth compared to the Fantasy daemon players vast, vast salt flats. I think I ended 8th undefeated with them. My point is...I'm not sure what it is. I think its that Warhammer players generally approach the game differently. A majority don't care about min/maxing or playing super competitivly and just want to have fun. Hormachine specifically attracts and is advertised to people (in my experience) as a tighter game with a more competitive edge. Most people I know who play Hormachine do so with the aim of competing in tournaments and being at least somewhat competitve with their armies.
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Post by BarbeChenue on May 17, 2017 17:42:45 GMT
My experience has been otherwise. When I got in to 40k back in 2009 I thought Thousand Sons were cool. I asked about them and people told me "Yea, they're pretty cool but they're slow so you gotta be careful with them." Thousand Sons collector here: Are you saying WMH players are more negative than Chaos Space Marine players...? If you were around in 2009, and 40k folks suggested it was fine to play Thousand Sons, they didn't play Chaos. My entire faction is based on a pillar of salt that drowns the stars, borne out of a bloody grudge stemming from the 4th Edition Codex replacing the nigh-perfect 3rd Edition, Second Codex (dubbed "3.5"). There is no word strong enough to describe the sheer hatred Chaos Space Marine players have against Games Workshop for utterly destroying their beloved faction. Many never recovered and have become nothing but shapeless balls of flesh and limbs, muttering like madmen from many gaping mouths...Negativity is a 40k thing as well.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 17, 2017 19:43:49 GMT
I won't be surprised if 40k 8th edition suffers the same thing mk3 did. Gets hyped up so much. Gets released. Endless salt cause its better but not as good as people hoped for.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 17, 2017 19:53:06 GMT
I won't be surprised if 40k 8th edition suffers the same thing mk3 did. Gets hyped up so much. Gets released. Endless salt cause its better but not as good as people hoped for. After experiencing the 40K fanbase firsthand unlikely...It's rabid. It's an utterly rabid fanbase (At least from my internet adventures), that yell happily about how much money they waste on utterly transparent "New shiny stuff" pushes. If PP just said "OK, here are Warjacks 2.0! They are slightly bigger but way better and awesome" I would kick the game out and never look back and trash talk it at every opportunity. MK3 seems to have been specifically about fixing up older releases and making it a much more balanced experience.
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Post by Cryptix on May 17, 2017 21:39:58 GMT
You do realize that's pretty much Colossals right? A bit more than "a b
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 17, 2017 23:41:26 GMT
You do realize that's pretty much Colossals right? A bit more than "a b Not really at all. There ALLOT bigger! In all seriousness though, they didn't represent a necessity and where not made as just better Warjacks. There was allot more design involvement and lots of vital details that meant they were not competing for the same niche. It's more like if PP released the New Plastic Kit Warjacks, and said that these were 2.0 Versions of the old Warjacks. Spess Mrunes getting bigger as GW changes their models is nothing new. But only a company like GW would have the balls to call them Super Duper Looper Space Marines, Cash Upfront, please.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 18, 2017 5:35:44 GMT
There's nothing negative about new shiny toys, and the rules of new 40k seem to be much better.
If GW succeeds, I bet the biggest player retention crisis is ahead. 8th may have a bigger impact than MK3 did, at least here, because most WM/H players are GW refugees and some still have armies for 40k.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 18, 2017 5:43:58 GMT
There's nothing negative about new shiny toys It's the type of new toy. Its Malibu Stacey that's exactly the same but in a new hat. The fact that people don't take it as an insult shocked even a guy like me who thought that there was a limit to abuse that a fanbase would endure before dropping. I was wrong. As long as GW continues to throw new hats, players will proceed to buy an identical malibu Stacey doll to just gain access too it. It feels like GW is a tyrannical king ruling over a kingdom of sunk cost fallacy and delusion. I'm honestly shocked that this type of abusive gameplay relationship with players can continue without riots.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 18, 2017 7:49:07 GMT
There's nothing negative about new shiny toys, and the rules of new 40k seem to be much better. If GW succeeds, I bet the biggest player retention crisis is ahead. 8th may have a bigger impact than MK3 did, at least here, because most WM/H players are GW refugees and some still have armies for 40k. Most of the refugees are from Fantasy though, so it would need to be AoS drawing them in (which I find highly improbable) -und_ed
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on May 18, 2017 9:11:02 GMT
The 8th edition of wh40k looks really cool. The supahmarines are the only discordant note and of they just throwed out new Marines kits and tweaked normal Marines rules, it was going to be Ben better because it's a lifetime and half people wait for truescale Marines. And yes they would buy the new truescale Marines kits because isn't only about playing but about the hobby in general. For your average wh40k player having a impressive army is as important as having a competitive army. An average wmh player could not care less.
Said this, I do think wmh is having a bit of a issue in terms of general design and delivery. Also because it's ridiculous you make a piece with some rules and then is not playable because there is no model available. The grolar come out only in the end of mk2 and then saw the rules changing so it's not even as much as useful as was before. If this is not a money grab I don't know what is. Luckily it was a single kit with the Kodiak so day saved.
Unfortunately I'm in a place where I feel PP cares for their customers less and less, at the point they're genuinely striving to alienate the fan base like gw did. I was quite happy and excited at the start of mk3 but my excitement is just dying more and more and I see things falling back into mk2 state of things (although I can only speak from a khador perspective).
If the difference between PP and GW will come to boil down to quality of models, well I can easily see who has the upper hand there, since it's really ludicrous to compare the latest gw kits with PP kits.
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Post by Azahul on May 18, 2017 9:58:50 GMT
Said this, I do think wmh is having a bit of a issue in terms of general design and delivery. Also because it's ridiculous you make a piece with some rules and then is not playable because there is no model available. The grolar come out only in the end of mk2 and then saw the rules changing so it's not even as much as useful as was before. If this is not a money grab I don't know what is. Luckily it was a single kit with the Kodiak so day saved. Complaints like that are why PP have stopped doing books once a year with a list of releases in them. Model stats are now only going to become available a few months before the model itself releases, and that through CID. Unfortunately I'm in a place where I feel PP cares for their customers less and less, at the point they're genuinely striving to alienate the fan base like gw did. Have you seen this week's CID? I'm in a place where I feel like if the fan base asks PP something they'll do it. It's getting ridiculous
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 18, 2017 17:05:42 GMT
Most of the refugees are from Fantasy though, so it would need to be AoS drawing them in (which I find highly improbable) -und_ed Hmm, not here. I don't know where are you from, but GW was VERY big in Europe and I feel a big majority of WM/H players here have had at least somekind of relationship with GW before. I wasn't referring to the death of Fantasy Battles; many people gave up on GW and 40k long before that, or buried their armies deep in their closets to wait for better days. You must know how things are with first love. I'm somehow hoping I'm wrong though. I'm looking forward to justify myself buying some GW stuff as I really like to paint their figures, but I just ordered a bunch of Cryx and my wallet can't stand a 40k faction anytime soon. If the game turns out to be good, I will buy in and eat rocks, but I certainly hope to get some mileage out of my WM/H figs this summer, and delve into 40k hopefully a bit later. Sadly the miniature gaming scene locally here is so small that playing much more than the most popular game is a waste of time. You pick what everyone else is playing, and kinda have to suck it. Otherwise you play alone I guess the choice is easier in some other parts of the world. I do try to play Malifaux, Infinity, Wrath of Kings, Blood Bowl and recently also WWX and AoS in addition to WM/H, but if people aren't about GW, they're about PP, so the opponents for those other games are less than 5. It saddens me to have these kind of loyal fancamps within a small hobby to begin with, but what can you do.. it's the "best ice hockey team", "best music genre" etc. attitude/discussion from the kindergarten again.. /rambling
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 19, 2017 11:46:13 GMT
I was quite happy and excited at the start of mk3 but my excitement is just dying more and more and I see things falling back into mk2 state of things (although I can only speak from a khador perspective). Sadly, I'm in the exact same boat. Cheers, Dave
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