gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 16, 2018 17:23:36 GMT
I see the Seraph as more of a tool to make up for the short coming of other models. The carni and Scythean really benefit quite a lot from the +2. Angels can get to a point of out threatening most anything else with it as well. But you have to think about the full cost. Would you really pay 14 points just for that chance of getting the Alpha? With premeasuring being so easy, the opponent can just ask "what's your max threat range?" At that point either you lie and leave out the +2 and thus loose a friend. Or you tell them the truth and lose any chance at that max range alpha. I have basically stopped using the thing. It's not even in my Abby list where it could put Proteus to a stupid high 16" threat on the 4" drag. It just doesn't bring enough to the table by itself in my opinion, no matter how strong that 2" placement is. But that doesn't mean it's not fantastic if you build a strategy around it. I've just built my strategy around not having. that's all. This is a pretty interesting way to look at it (definitely like the point you made about "player honesty"). But not sure I can agree with you regarding the alpha. Generally the person with the longest threat range gets the alpha, at least with the two pieces involved. The opponent may not "give it to you", but it he doesn't than he has to stay away. Either giving up scenario pressure or never getting within his own threat range. But getting the first strike isn't often enough. What you send in has to kill we it goes after, or be able to survive his counter strike, or at least be able to tie up his forces while you take scenario pieces. So the Seraph's slipstream has to have other appropriate pieces in your army to "give the alpha to". Things that hit either equal to or above their points value... Which isn't easy to do in Legion (though getting easier with cheaper sharks now). The other thing it does is really make the whole "flight/Pathfinder" thing really pay off... IF you have a forest or persistent clouds in play as terrain THAT YOU CAN USE. For example, Carny walks up behind forest and chills. Enemy can't charge him because can't see him. Next turn, Seraph goes, slips him into forest, and now he gets the charge on the enemy who couldn't do so back. But you need a forest (or cloud) in the right position to do this (this is my big problem with Legion... We have no way to force this situation. If we had forest or cloud making, I think Legion would really come into its own, but tangent) Those are the two big reasons to use Seraph. It's expensive tool to get it that on its own doesn't threaten enough for its point value. But I think if you aren't using it than you are missing out on really what makes Legion distinctive from other factions. Otherwise you are just playing "harder to win with Hordes". Again, to me. Obviously it's utility in infantry based armies is significantly less. Or in ranged armies. Etc. But Flare is still a thing and pretty much always useful. So yes, I would probably use it every time unless I was playing mostly melee infantry (so, Primal Terrors) |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 15, 2018 18:35:15 GMT
If hitting power is what you need, say you are facing a bunch of enemy heavies, the Scythean is the least likely to make it. It has no shooting defense, nothing to hide behind, and has nearly the worst threat range in your list (more than the Carny but not if you include Assault or the Carnivean ability to take a charge to face). So if you are facing an enemy that doesn't shoot AND one that you out threat with your Scythean... Then it will come up. Only it doesn't hit as hard as the Carnivean (for only two more points), loses any staying power from an animus, and doesn't have a breath weapon.
Seems pretty unlikely to me.
Couple bits it can do though.
IF you can clear a path to their caster, it's feat attack can still kill them on a good damage roll thanks to Murderous.
It's wonderful against Troll Champions.
Throne, on the other hand, increases the accuracy of your entire army, is more resilient, mulches infantry like a champ, and gives all your flyers something to hide behind (and then fly over on the charge)... It won't hit as hard as the Scythean, but I would say again, just how likely do you think it will be that the Scythean is delivered safely?
Also, if you really want safety from a gun line, I think you would be much better off running Raeks to hunt them for you. As it stands right now, most gunline armies that I have seen would crush thisb list, but your meta may differ.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 15, 2018 16:12:12 GMT
The Scythean feels like it could (should) be replaced with a Throne. I struggle to find a place for Scythean in any list. He seems to be a way to put Grievous Wounds out there, but isn't particularly good at getting there (and you have no Precision Strike either). He'd be great at assassinating casters, but without speed or flight I don't see him getting that opportunity unless your opponent is just playing poorly.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 15, 2018 14:00:34 GMT
I just realized I've been referring to all Cataphracts as Cetrati. Because I had a big ole bowl of stupid-oes this morning, apparently. My bad  (Not in this thread, but others and other conversations) |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Mar 15, 2018 13:41:40 GMT
yeah, the cetrati, being immune to enemy spells means their constant 22 armor (thanks to krea and aggy) can't be debuffed by abilities like parasite, making them a wall among walls as they already have tough and 5 boxes. Since I run double kitty under Mak2 I tend to continuously judge their ability usage on that, where a willbreaker is also giving them tough and they are receiving dodge from rhadeim, but that list is crazy and drives people bonkers  If there is anything you should remember it's to keep your caster from the center of the action where they can easily be unloaded upon. Due to errors that can occur with lightning strike, I much prefer to armor him up and hide him behind my impenetrable wall. Acruarii are actually excellent pieces to place your defender's ward on instead... unless your opponent is hell bent on killing them the moment the game starts x.O; With a pow 12 weaponmaster 8 inch range weapon and a pow 12 weaponmaster 2 inch melee weapon, they can easily wreck whatever they drag in (which gets hit by both weapons in the same turn) Since they lack assault, you can have fun giving them an additional 2 inches from the Tycom and threat a glorious 15 inches that tends to catch your opponent by surprise. Light jacks, medium based infantry, and anything sitting on a small base can easily be broken apart and overwhelmed by them as they casually drag them off to your side of the board On feat turn they can easily surpass even heavy beasts in damage output (the unit). So Arcuarri... A full unit will get to shoot probably once. Once one of them drags, much of the rest of the unit won't get to because their target will either be in melee or the pulled guy will be in melee with them... Or you risk not dragging the target at all. With weapon master, you get 6 attacks at RAT 6. When against heavies, that's probably 2/3 hitting. 4 attacks against ARM 18 (19 is probably average but whatever), dice - 6... That's 13.5 damage. Then one of them gets a melee attack. Assuming it hits that is another 4.5 damage, for 18. This costs 17. They don't have enough attacks to work against 1-wound infantry well. It seems to me their ideal target is other heavy infantry. Hitting and dragging each target... You probably will kill it. Only the best heavy infantry typically can't be dragged (shieldwalled blocking all but the most perfect angle, or they simply have anti push tech). To keep them alive you need both an Agonizer and a Krea, but those aren't free in Masters of War, so that's another 13 points, both of which have pretty minimal offensive output on their own. And those beasts require 4 fury to do their thing, so that's Paingivers for another 5 points. I just don't see it. The thing they do bring is shooting to Masters of War... But so do Minions. Or heck, even Incindiarri, who at least have splash damage and continuous fire. Or I can take those same 17 + 7 + 6 + 5 points and play Ferrox, who are more survivable, longer threat, and whose base cost is similar, but don't need all the support pieces (but can still benefit from them if you want to bring them anyway). I want to like Cataphracts, I really do. I have 5 units of them fully painted on permanent shelf duty because I can't find a good reason to use them in any list. I can come up with reasons for Cetrati thanks to Shield Wall. Incindiarri have some neat unique tech. But Arcuarri are, in my opinion, the worst models in Skorne by a wide margin. Having said all that, they still aren't that bad. The grass is just SO GREEN in this desert  |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 22:57:32 GMT
I'll have to take this all into consideration. However, I should add that I tend to run Xerxis pretty hot, letting his stats take some of the damage if it's necessary. This is mainly because I've been taught to take as much of the field as possible as quickly as possible. This does 2 things: limits the number of turns that ranged units get to shoot (I have no qualms with running swordsmen into a line of infantry if it keeps them from firing) at your melee pieces and provides severe pressure to the opposing side of the board. I'm only using the Krea as a delivery piece in which by my third turn I'll no longer be using him. During those two turns, where I'm burning his fury down, I'll NEED the additional fury from the Krea. At the same time, without the Krea, I could afford a full unit of beast handlers who can also heal my beasties. My Xerxes ran pretty hot too. I used Lightning Strike to run him back behind a dude-wall to keep him safe. My Krea did very little after turn 2, as by then I had fully engaged, but I really needed them on my way in. On feat turn they can still do some work though. Ps14 + 3d6 is pretty good for a model you don't care about losing. Occasionally they get to line up a shot at the enemy caster or high defense beast to try and paralyze it. I highly recommend Ferrox for tying up enemy lines. They do amazing things with Defenders Ward, and love both the March and +2 damage orders from Xerxes1. You seem to be going the Cetrati route though, so you may not find things as dire as I do without ranged protection. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:30:58 GMT
There are too many models that are only "viable" in theme for me to agree with that. Gatormen Posse only getting 8 wounds in theme, Ogrun only getting Vengeance in theme, Nephilim Soldiers only getting Unyielding in theme, etc. I dont understand your argument. What does theme bonuses improving models have to do with testing models out of theme? Wouldnt u want copious amounts of themeless data before you hand out theme bonuses? Models that are simply "not good" out of theme implies to me that they didn't care about making those models good out of theme. Doubly so when they do a CiD on them and still decide to make them only worth playing in theme. Your Typhon Excessive Healing example certainly displays how they care about things being "too good" out of theme, but it doesn't say they care about addressing under-performing models out of theme. Which again says (to me) their primary focus is on themed armies. Will they let you play out of theme? Sure, go to town. But will try care about those lists being competitively viable? From what I've seen the answer is a resounding "no". Not that I blame them, really. It's a very pragmatic approach. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:13:34 GMT
I said "much". Yes, they care "some", but it certainly isn't their primary concern. I'd say like 80/20. Id argue they do (much). There are too many models that are only "viable" in theme for me to agree with that. Gatormen Posse only getting 8 wounds in theme, Ogrun only getting Vengeance in theme, Nephilim Soldiers only getting Unyielding in theme, etc. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:04:38 GMT
One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear. This sounds like tin foil hat talk to me. It was quite clear from our own Primal Terrors CID that PP does test hypotheses about models out of theme. Typhon did not have his Excessive Healing changed from previous mk3 during Primal Terrors. PP asked players to test Typhon with Abby out of theme to see if the interaction of her feat and his old Excessive Healing were too powerful. It was tested and Presto! Typhons Excessive Healing now grants Rapid Healing so theres no overlap with Abbys feat. So, yes the CIDs do make it very clear that PP stress tests all the CID models between the end of CID and the release of a Dynamic Update and that they do test things out of theme. I said "much". Yes, they care "some", but it certainly isn't their primary concern. I'd say like 80/20. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 20:47:54 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, Lanz You Are Not Wrong. (maybe about the attitude or choice of words, but not the basis of the argument) Playing out of theme is perfectly acceptable and functional. I only have about half or less of my current, set in stone, lists in theme. I've never been walked over in any game against any opponent. It's quite often the other way around. Why? Because not every single player is a pro-level international tournament winner. There are people out there that only play in-theme and they still loose. It's a GAME. People have dismissed me, called me dishonest, devalued my experience, used skewed personal definitions of "competitive" and "casual", and set a lucrative goal post for what makes me credible... But I, and anyone else who wants, can continue to play this game with non-theme lists and find success. (It just takes more work.) Personal preference is still possible in this game. The player can still control how they build lists and play them. PP had yet to lay down a law of "Theme or GTFO" [/rant] Typhon might even get fit into my Kryssa list. I can actually "afford" him. But that will likely only last until Golab gets released because holy cow... Sprint and Pow 17 WM *swoon It also makes my Saeryn list easier to manipulate. Will definitely drop the Carni in my F2 for him... I want to find a way to put him and the AA together under Vayl 1. I believe PP's reasoning behind allowing theme-less armies is actually very similar yours. They didn't want to say to people "your armies are suddenly invalid". I also think they didn't want the Herculean task of balancing entire factions, so they went out of the way to make themes "just better" (speaking from a purely competitive perspective, of course), so that way when making revisions down the road, this "better buffer" will prevent them from having to worry about how their changes will affect the balance of theme-less armies. Of course, they didn't do a perfect job of that, and I think Legion is one of those factions that simply isn't better 99% of the time when playing in-theme (though with the impending full release of Primal Terrors, I think that will change some). I think this speaks more to how poorly designed Legion's themes were, but regardless, for most factions, there really isn't much competitive value in playing out of theme. You simply lose too many points and valuable special rules most of the time. I actually just saw a list by Chris Orr that was entirely theme-less and it did very well (Kallus/Blightbringer/Grotesques, if you are curious) I think the biggest reason you find significant clashes with other people on this issue is that most posters, at least the ones that weigh in on the value/balance of models/factions are going to be the competitive players. The casual ones are probably too busy playing and painting to go online to complain about models being lousy for their points, so your points will artificially sound like the fringe minority. I suspect most people don't even consider the idea that there's different kinds of balance for different levels of play. So people will find the idea that "themeless forces matter" an unrelatable perspective, and may get frustrated when someone interjects such a perspective into their discussion (viewing it as derailing the conversation, etc). But fun is fun, and there are many ways to get there. I play in a league in South Jersey that has about 34 people in it. Roughly 5 of them play out of theme. Talking to them about it, they simply aren't making their lists to be the "most competitive possible given the restrictions of their models/faction", but they still enjoy the competitive nature of the league and the game itself and talking about it. They are far from our best players, but they aren't our worst players either. We do think they are "holding themselves back" from doing better, but they are having tons of fun regardless. One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear. |
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gordo
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My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 18:01:01 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, LanzYou should really just be annoyed with PP then. They are the ones who made it this way. All the players did is follow their lead. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 17:59:19 GMT
So guys I need your advice could one of you tell me the typical core of an all Immortals Zaal List? Also the Beastloadout , I think the only casters would be Zaal 1 + 2 ? And obviously, is it possible to build it as an all comer that it is playable in most Matchups? Maybe just with switching casters and beasts? Greetings Consider Rasheth also. Your guys get souls even when Rasheth channels through them and he fixes many their hitting issues with Carnivore and feat. |
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gordo
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My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 17:52:51 GMT
Xerxis was always my favorite caster in MK1 so I've been trying to regulate him back into my cycle. I'm still fine tuning this list but it is definitely competitive. Tyrant Xerxis -Basilisk Krea -Agonizer -Razor Worm (for animus) -Tiberion Cataphract Cetrati (max) -Tyrant Vorkesh (free) Praetorian Swordsmen (max) -Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard -Cataphract Arcuarii (max) Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (free) Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (free) Legends of Halaak 3/3 Free Cards- 74/75 pts There are a few things I'm still questioning in the list, such as the Legends of Halaak, but this list gets around the biggest issues skorne infantry have while still being beefy enough to wreck house, especially on feat turn. Both Tycoms and Xerxis can give faction models Pathfinder, allowing all 3 of the main units to pass through the board unhindered. Placing Tactical Supremacy on the Celtari first turn, as well as giving them the +2 inches from a tycom allows them to move 10 inches up the board and still shield wall. That turn, Xerxis can place the defender's ward on either the swordsmen or the Arcuarii depending on who is being threatened the most. My questionable choices are the Razor Worm + Legends of Halaak, who could be switched for a Rhinodon and a solo, (1 tycom would disappear) as well as if I should go double swordsmen, no swordsmen and another unit of Arcuarii, or even toss in an Incindiarii. The reason I don't have paingivers is because, at the current time, my beat stick is my infantry, not my beasts. Tibs only job is as a deterrent and an important piece annihilator if someone decides to get bold. I tried running Xerxes1 without paingivers but still using Krea to protect my dudes. I found a couple things: One Krea is not enough. You can't cover nearly enough of your army, and they will just shoot the rest. You would think Xerxes1 could cast it and maybe get what you need, but just putting out but his upkeeps on first turn blows all your fury, and if you don't get first turn, you WILL need your Krea animus if you are facing any shooting. Running a Krea pretty much requires use of Paingivers (or possibly a Gobbers Chef) or they will frenzy if you ever want to use your animus. And if you are running without using its animus, why is it in your list? It's such an issue that I considered replacing Krea entirely with Cyclops Brutes. But the mostly the only kind of shooting that is a danger to Xerxes1 is anything with a decent number of shots. And the requires more Shield Guards than I could field. I've also found Tiberion to be completely overkill. On feat turn Xerxes1 hits so hard that I've never found his hitting power needed. Some fun alternate uses for Paingivers: with their reach, they are actually fairly good at unjamming your dude-walls. They can often get to a rear arc to boost their hitting to acceptable levels and they can run through your guys with Tactician easily enough. On feat turn, they can be another buffer to help you keep your +2 base to base armor bonus. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 13, 2018 20:54:41 GMT
Also there is nice synergy between Blood Spawn and Excessive Healing. Where Spiny Growth might stop the Shredder from spawning at all, Excessive Healing (and to a lesser degree Regeneration through Typhon) will help him trigger his free lesser more often and recover more easily once he has.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 13, 2018 20:48:53 GMT
The carnivean animus gets beat by Blessed where Typhons animus gets beat by Grievous Wounds. I think Typhons three sprays and 5 fury are better than worrying about Blessed vs Grievous unless ur meta loves them some Grievous. I'm pretty sure there is also way more access to Blessed out there than Grievous Wounds (at least, at range, which is where I'm most concerned). Also, Typhon being faster is a big deal to me. He does lose Pathfinder, but with all the other terrain mitigation in the list I figure he can deal. And he's meatier and more accurate and regenerating and etc. Also his Sprays under Withering Ash should be brutal. |
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