gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Jun 5, 2018 13:39:51 GMT
I always am a bit surprised by threads like these because my meta has taken off in such a huge way since mk3, but...
In our area, not long after mk3 began we started up a local league (we call it a Scrum). It basically plays like a steamroller where you only play one game a week. It started out roughly 10 people, and has now grown to over 36. It has really motivated the community in our area and has increased tournament attendance dramatically.
I think two things happened to make this possible:
1. Mk3 was released and is continually polished to better balance and re-balance the game so that it isn't always the same few lists on top. This really improved the competitive depth of the game.
2. We (the players) found a format that lowered the barrier of entry (time commitment, finding other players, finding locations to play) and then promoted the ever loving crap out of it.
Step 1 has already happened and is continuing to happen with every CiD.
Step 2 is on you.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 4, 2018 21:06:20 GMT
I find it amusing we are already looking at nerfing options. I'm not sure this is unwarranted, mind you, but I certainly think it's probably a bit early. They couldn't possibly have warped the meta yet.
My only real issue is finding reasons to use the other options available in PT lists other than "they are only FA 2". They are there, mind you, but not usually in any lists I actually think have equal competitive value.
Tangent: does anyone know their fluff? Like, how/when they came to be, etc. With a name like "Chosen" it feels like there is something more than the usual there. Their name and stats and looks just screams GW Chaos to me...
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 4, 2018 14:05:56 GMT
the animantarax is surely over powering, but it's not necessary for a Skorne list. An example would be the crazy cat lady lists with mak2 and double ferox. It's a heavily competitive list that steamrolls almost ALL lists if it gets to go first, yet lacks the room for something like the animantarax, as you need fury providers before huge based gunning machines (ferox are out front playing with the enemy so you don't need much melee other than them). This has more to do with how to best play the faction rather than how best to play the model. Animantarax can move across the board, provide long range support, and even has more armor than our beasts. It works great for either filling in the holes to a desired play style or ramping up one of the faction's current play styles to the nth. The Animantarax is a great addition to our low fury number casters and benefits nightmarishly well with our numerous support models and spells. Its mere existence on the field makes players have to consider a much longer threat range, keeping our titan hordes from getting pummeled before they even make it up the board, bringing back the validity of some of our more questionable choices due to lack of threat. Because the Animantarax is so great at filling the gaps, however, a lot of players get used to not having to worry about those gaps and begin to be suck-tacular the moment you take him out. If you practice playing Skorne without the animantarax you'll soon see a whole new side of skorne that is what made original skorne players play skorne x.O; Run in your sacrificial wall to attract attention until your beasts get into play, then rip apart some machines like they are scrap paper after being boosted to the nth. Well, yes, but Masters of War doesn't allow Derples anyway. I think a lot of people find that Imperial War Host and Winds of Death need it. I think both "function" but aren't going to compete against better lists very well without Derples, especially IWH. I've tried running X2 without them, and either my army is too small to hold things or everything frenzies too easily and I lose the attrition war anyway. The turtles just take a load off your fury management and give you that crucial piece that can operate outside your control area. They could be worse and I would still probably have to run them just to compete on scenario alone (in IWH) |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 25, 2018 15:17:28 GMT
The actual reason why is simple Battle engines. As it stands non of our theme forces allow these. And with Rhyas 1 the ability to hit 12" away. Teleport base to base in back arc, attack another model within 4", and possiply to sp8 or spell a model within 10 is far better than any theme bonus. It also gains 5 melee attacks from the feat and is great at anti infantry control It only gains 1 melee attack which triggers one spell attack if it kills, unless I'm mistaken. Also, have your tried teleporting the Thrones yet? I've seen people try to do it and then basically be blocked from teleporting to where they want because their base is so large. Though I've never tried to run this list myself. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 24, 2018 15:29:11 GMT
Why aren't you considering Rhyas with Primal Terrors? Either instead of our in addition to Thagrosh.
Berserk with her feat is hilarious. Ogrun love the speed boost. Warspears love Occultation. Rhyas loves the Blightbringer and all the medium bases to hide behind and charge through. Even the Hellmouths benefit a lot (the extra attack on the tentacles and the placement can really help their accuracy)
This list basically wrote itself:
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - rhyas primal Terrors
Theme: Primal Terrors
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30
- Ammok the Truthbearer - PC: 4
- Blightbringer - PC: 32 (Battlegroup Points Used: 30)
- Harrier - PC: 3
Warmonger War Chief - PC: 5
Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15
- Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 13
- Gorag Rotteneye - PC: 0
Blighted Rotwings - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7
Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 0
Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 0
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 13
THEME: Primal Terrors
---
GENERATED : 05/24/2018 11:28:28
BUILD ID : 2066.18-05-11
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 24, 2018 14:28:07 GMT
Oh I never even wanted to discuss making Guidance worse really, just perhaps limiting it to non-Battle Engine targets.
Most (all?) Battle Engines that shoot do so at much higher rate of fire, or just flat out "better" than similarly costed, well, anything. Allowing all that to get Eyeless Sight for the almost same cost that you get Eyeless Sight on your Cannoneer? Maybe a problem... Maybe. But digression: if the turtle has problems, I don't think really access to Eyeless Sight is it.
From a fluff pov, the reason it is so fast is that it gets great bursts of speed when angry... But it doesn't feel very "character-ful" for that angry to let it run away at that speed. I could see it only getting the bonus to speed when charging or trampling. At least that way it can't be "quite" the mobile shooting platform that it is currently. This way it can't forever dance out of range while shooting the enemy until it wants to charge.
A friend of mine posited this about the Turtle: "It's really bad for the faction because without it, the faction struggles, but with it, you can't really boost anything else (beast-wise) in the faction to more reasonable performance for its points.". Of course, he's speaking merely from a top tier competitive play perspective, which I haven't the skillset nor experience to really argue. But... If I look at models that serve a similar function in our faction: the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, and the Mammoth... They all seem very under-performing for their points.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 23, 2018 14:38:41 GMT
They literally added in a way to get eyeless in all hordes themes (including the ones with battle engines) well after the battle engine CID. Your line of reasoning, that eyeless sight was not really considered on battle engines, makes no sense. Sure, if PP never made mistakes and tested everything thoroughly. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 23, 2018 13:56:29 GMT
For many effects like "Guidance", they were created in an era of either no Battle Engines or crappy Battle Engines. So effects like Guidance were limited to super costly Gargantua, warnouns with their many known counters and restrictions, or warrior models. I can see them further limiting some of these effects to "non-Battle Engine", for much the same reason that such huge models are also immune to many debuffs. Not that I really think this is the problem with Turtle. It's shooting is nice but certainly not the most impactful part of this model. I mean in mk2 you could eyeless sight a sentinel and have it fire twice with snipe through a forest because of mk2 eyeless and ancillary. Eyeless on a stick has always been great. But its skornes only real stealth solution (slingers are cute and cant see through stealth making flare awkward, zaal2 doesnt really synergise with a gunline at all) I would disagree on the shooting not being the most impactful bit of the turtle. When you take that away you get a great melee BE but with it, its firing turn on turn with really good threat range and repo3 and getting value until it finally commits and when it does that gun is either putting more damage into its primary target or firing into the back line. Basically turtle without its gun wouldnt be near the titan of skorne competitive play that it is Mk2 comparisons are unfortunately not helpful. I'm not even sure I advocate it, but if the Extoller could not give Eyeless Sight to the Turtle, would it be so tilting? I'm not sure, but I think it's worth exploring, because that rule was written before Battle Engines were ever even considered. (Yes, the Engines have been around for a longish time but they were so terrible no one cared so the combination of Eyeless Sight was never an issue) Personally I am not concerned about the Eyeless Sight combo. There are plenty of counters to it's shooting at the moment (good armor, shield guards, cover, most infantry DEF), but maybe if it couldn't ignore cloud walls, stealth, and concealment there would be enough largely accessible counter-play people wouldn't have such a hard time. It's non-boostable RAT 5-7 POW 13-15. If you can't find a way to weather that, you really aren't trying very hard. While I agree it's the "whole package" that makes the turtle "tilting", if I had to I'd much rather lose its shooting before its other strengths (melee, speed, durability). |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 22, 2018 19:49:39 GMT
I use mine for upsetting typos.
Moist Speaker.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 22, 2018 19:47:29 GMT
For many effects like "Guidance", they were created in an era of either no Battle Engines or crappy Battle Engines. So effects like Guidance were limited to super costly Gargantua, warnouns with their many known counters and restrictions, or warrior models. I can see them further limiting some of these effects to "non-Battle Engine", for much the same reason that such huge models are also immune to many debuffs.
Not that I really think this is the problem with Turtle. It's shooting is nice but certainly not the most impactful part of this model.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 16, 2018 20:22:41 GMT
Speaking from a top tier competitive scene, Skorne hasn't placed in a tournament in 2018. According to Discount Games Skorne got 3rd Kindomcon 3rd Southern Ontario Open Masters 2nd Steam storm VI 3rd Southern Ontario Open Champions 3rd Adepticon Masters 1st and 2nd Ontario Team Championship 2018 3rd Las Vegas Open Champions 1st Americas Team Championship 2018 I stand corrected. I tried searching on Discount Games myself. Apparently I'm not very good at this. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 16, 2018 18:36:07 GMT
Eiryss is "yet another assassin caster" in a faction full of assassination tech. Oh wait, she also does infantry removal, because THAT'S what Legion was lacking... Hence the muted at best reaction to her.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 16, 2018 18:22:13 GMT
Speaking from a top tier competitive scene, Skorne hasn't placed in a tournament in 2018. So I think people have adjusted.
To me, the turtle is the only way the faction even comes close to competing at top levels. That doesn't mean it is balanced, but it means... Well, something.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 14, 2018 21:19:06 GMT
Something to consider when we wonder wy they didn't pick "obvious caster x" for this treatment, such as Mortenebra for CoC, they may be saving these ideas for an actually legal Goreshade-style faction switch at a later date.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 10, 2018 19:11:33 GMT
At worst it would mean that Legion ends up with 4 free choices . . . Wasn't this the reason that Oracles was nerfed last year? People were getting mad because Legion could load up their lists with beasts and get 4 support models (2 S&H and 2 whatever) for free? Yes. And then they released themes for other armies shortly thereafter that get the same number or more freebies, many of which cost more points. Plus they already had themes out there that got that many free points. Yet they still did it. That nerf always confused me... |
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