gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548 
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Post by gordo on Jul 3, 2018 14:28:43 GMT
Two things:
If you are playing any of the Lyls, you will have low fury scores and will therefore really appreciate the Telemetry the Bloodseer will bring.
Teraph? It feels like a better use of points than the Ravagore if you are really going to spam fire. Otherwise you are paying for all the pillow-fisting of the Ravagore's melee with a caster who can't really support it. Plus AD and Dig In is really useful in a shooting game.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jul 2, 2018 13:05:18 GMT
I ran X1 for a while, and I found three major issues:
1. Single wound infantry hate. It's everywhere and it crushes. Covering fire, continuous effects, auto damage zones... You name it, it hurts badly.
2. Control Area of only 10". With the amount of infantry you have to run for him to work, it's basically impossible for him to get more than half of his army covered. This was incredibly debilitating, almost game breaking in any live scenario.
3. Clock. To run him well you have to run lots of infantry, but with such a small control area he can't clear and hold enough to make the decisive turn that he needs, so you end up having to play attrition... And with that many models, you lose largely because of clock. You simply can't move enough of them to the right places while still managing your clock correctly. Frustrating.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 25, 2018 14:33:47 GMT
I always felt that Rasheth fixes them even harder than Xerxes1. Plus when he kills them by channeling they still get souls!
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Infernals
Jun 25, 2018 14:19:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Jun 25, 2018 14:19:43 GMT
If there is one thing that says "demonologists" to me, it is summoning things.
So I expect them to pay for whatever their equivalent of warbeast with normal points. They don't start in play. They spend focus to summon them onto the table. If they get killed, they just summon it back again. But the focus spent the bring them into play doesn't come back until they die, so you have a trade off. Only RFP effects would get rid of them. This would make a new wrinkle on resource allocation: do you cast spells or do you summon demons? Do you let the demon go to regain your focus? So on.
They said they would "break the rules". This would do it.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 19, 2018 16:14:36 GMT
How long will it be till the next Khador CID let alone time until the MoWs get looked at again? The CID process looks to be around 1.5 to 2 years long to get through all the factions with the new limited factions and 12 factions of Christmas mixed in there. So you assume each faction has 5 themes either they have 5 now or will get new ones added until they get 5. That gives you 7.5 to 10 years before you would even think about going back to a theme you have already CIDed. If you assume all factions will get as many themes has cryx has now the number gets to 9 to 12 years. So the answer is probably "never" I can not imagine PP will not change the design process or the base rules to the game significantly within 6 to 9 years from now. I am assuming CID started about a year ago even though the actual start of CID is a little blurry. Well, to some degree this vision of the future is a little overly bleak. For many factions, there is usually plenty of overlap between themes in the shape of their battlegroup options. For example, while only Primal Terrors got CiD'd, there were changes to many of their beasts that also affected Oracles of Annihilation. But yes, I see your bleakness and raise you faction-favoritism. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 18, 2018 18:34:18 GMT
I finally got to play some games with Vayl2. I don't want to start saying I know anything about playing her well. But I did enjoy her beyond reason. Just the amount of things she can do, the number of options and potential to affect the game board. It's fantastic. I hope to work out more and more details of how/when/what/etc...
But the main point I want to bring up is a the point of contention I have with her and the impression of her the other local players have. There are some super serious competitors in the local store. When I asked for their opinions it literally started and ended with "I would never take Vayl2 to a tournament. There are entire factions that shut down what she wants to do."
I couldn't refute that either. Yes, there are some simple anti-spell tech pieces out there. But is a caster "dead" if there is even some good tech in the meta that counters them?
PoM always has some pretty good "nope" when it comes to spells. I mean the first game of the day was against Reznik2 who has lamentation. Scourge has Arcane vortex. Indictors got buffed. Choir as still the choir. Cage ragers exist. Ruin trump arcana exists. Mulg, Orinn, Ruin, Sacral Vault, etc... Lots of stuff in Retribution...
Is Vayl2 just a bad choice due to spell-hate?
If your list strategy with her relies upon offensive spell slinging to work: yes, of course. I have a hard time imagining much of a list with her that wouldn't rely on offensive spell slinging, so... Her feat kinda implies it is a core part of her game. Still, Occultation, Boundless Charge, Admonition are all buffs and much harder to shut down. I just can't imagine her being able to defeat Menoth lists on the strength of those spells alone. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 18, 2018 13:30:20 GMT
We work on a very simple basis - ignore CiD until it's official. The competitive guys love WM because of the tight rules and great faction balance, and by definition CiD is not yet balanced, so why should they spend valuable gaming time on an inferior version of the game? More casual players don't want to spend hours catching up to the latest version of CiD, so they also have no need to play CiD. Let CiD do its thing, and let players who are playing 5+ games a week spend a game or two per week on CiD, but for the rest it's really pointless. Just enjoy the best version of the game, which is not the beta-testing version. For me that has kind of extended to models that are not in CID, but have been confirmed as going into CID in the not too distant future.
For example I played against Circle the other day in Call of the Wild, I could not help feeling as if the game was skewed against my opponent as he was playing all Living Circle heavies, which are more than likely to get buffed in CID, so it kinda felt like I was playing against a beta-army, even though it had not entered CID yet.
Something I try to do is just have "non-CiD'd" armies ready to play when my opponent is playing them. This is really just "have weaker lists ready" for me since Skorne hasn't ever had a CiD, but... Put another way, I've got a tweaked out double turtle Rasheth Winds of Death list and a Zaal1 Exalted list. Guess which list comes out when my opponent plays his Thornfall list? |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 12, 2018 21:07:34 GMT
I considered an attrition based list using Xekaar combo'd with Posses and Agonizers. But I think it plays better in with Drake spam instead.
Still, Xekaar's feat is pretty strong for making enemies bounce. Posses end up being effective defense 17 to shooting and ARM 23 vs melee. But the penalty to RAT doesn't come up often because it means the enemy is shooting within 12" of your caster... Ain't going to happen much. Anyway, heres the list:
War Room Army
Skorne - disciples attrition
Theme: Disciples of Agony
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Beast Master Xekaar - WB: +31
- Blind Walker - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Chiron - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Agonizer - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
- Agonizer - PC: 6
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - PC: 0
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - PC: 4
Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
THEME: Disciples of Agony
---
GENERATED : 06/12/2018 17:04:03
BUILD ID : 2066.18-05-11
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 12, 2018 19:15:54 GMT
A big barrier to play for me was dedicating a day to a tournament. The answer my meta uses for this problem is what we call a Scrum, which is basically a steamroller with only one game a week, any time and any place you can get it. Organized online, it also provides a great way to scrounge up players for pick up games too. Using this as a spring board, our meta went from maybe 6-8 regular players to 36+. It's pretty crazy. I like this idea a lot, do you happen to have a rules doc for it or any notes on how it was organized? I think my group would get a kick out of this. I posted all about it in the other thread that spawned this one, "I've got a sinking feeling". That thread is too long for me to go rifling through on my phone though, but you can find my notes there. Long story short: normal Steamroller rules, only one game a week with allowances for extensions, no judges so everything rules must be resolved by the players, and we allow first round challenges instead of purely random pairings. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 11, 2018 20:22:23 GMT
A big barrier to play for me was dedicating a day to a tournament. The answer my meta uses for this problem is what we call a Scrum, which is basically a steamroller with only one game a week, any time and any place you can get it. Organized online, it also provides a great way to scrounge up players for pick up games too. Using this as a spring board, our meta went from maybe 6-8 regular players to 36+. It's pretty crazy.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 11, 2018 13:37:59 GMT
Basically, put some effort into your models and don't be a dick when talking to new people. That's the secret to getting new people interested in the games. I think the "paint your models" i really just one of of the ways in which you can just "engage your community". An attractive looking game will attract more players, of course, but so will a game community with lots of tournaments, leagues, campaigns, etc. Both of these kinds of actions are basically "welcome signs" to potential players. So basically, the Press Gangers are sorely missed... But also very easy for anyone to replicate, even if you are a terrible/unmotivated painter. That's basically what "we" can reasonably do as players. If you are "casual gamer", push the presentation aspects (painting, terrain, etc). If you are a "competitive gamer", organize leagues, host gaming tables at your house, give "noob lessons", run tournaments, etc. As for what PP should do... Dunno. I'm torn on that front. On the one hand, since GW is "doing well" maybe they should emulate some their of their strategies. On the other hand, I got into WMHD because I despised GW an saw in PP a radically different company and game philosophy. I'd hate to lose that... |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 8, 2018 19:06:08 GMT
There will always be a subset of folks who came for the steampunk robots rather than the competitive ruleset; deciding this game shouldn't be for them too is a terrible business move. This. Right here. Hobby gamers and casual gamers exist, and the game needs to cater to all three kinds of players to be successful. Further, excluding hobby and casual gamers will hurt the competitive scene in the long run, as people may get into Warmachine for the cool robits and dive into competitive play once they’ve learned the fundamentals. Not to mention that if all the hobby and casual gamers all quit buying WMH and played 40K instead, PP’s bottom line would suffer and that’s not good for anyone. Ideally, it’s good to have all three in the community. From what I’ve seen, Privateer Press gets that. Unfortunately, there is a section of the community that doesn’t. Right, but the suggestion wasn't that PP should stop making detailed models or models that are fun to play, it was that EXISTING players should stop using 2D terrain and unpainted models in order so that we can attract new gamers. It's a very counter-intuitive suggestion to be. While the game can appeal to both kinds of gamers, I don't think we can reasonable expect gamers who prefer one style of play to suddenly change to a different style in order to appeal to new players. It also just feels weird to me to try and turn Warmachine into a game that it clearly isn't in order to appeal to people who want a different game... In order to save the game we love. Wouldn't it, at that point, stop being the game we love? "Some customers prefer pizza, others prefer salad. In order to appeal to both customer types, let's put salad on our pizza instead of just selling both pizza and salads." I don't get it. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 7, 2018 21:12:44 GMT
TBH its quite clear from the community to the rest of the outside world that this is not what WM/H is about. Which makes me really sad. As a community we need to be much more serious about the hobby and painting aspect of the game. We need to make the game look good which also means moving away from the obsession with 2D terrain, tables that are near identical both sides of the board and and people playing with unpainted models. The game looks so much better and sells better when its presented well by players. Ash at Guerrilla Gaming, Advanced Maneuvers etc do a good job at showing off the game but what we really need is a couple of channels that are the equivalent to StrikingScorpion82 etc that show off their game (40K) in a dramatic and well shot way. How you choose to play and present WM/H is the biggest advertisement for our game. Lets all be better at doing this. I don't see this happening because everyone I know who plays this game and is drawn to it does so because of an affection for the rules and the competitive nature. That's what drew me to this game. While my entire army is painted, it was only done so as an afterthought. I suspect most people drawn primarily by the hobby aspect of the game will be drawn to other games with better quality models, narrative, and pricing (aka GW, Infinity, save for maybe pricing). Most serious gamers that I know who play this game PREFER 2-d terrain and less conversions because it makes the game easier to play (no moving trees around, etc). We scoff at true line of sight games, tournaments with painting scores, etc. To me, this kind of gamer, though not necessarily skill level it implies, is the core player of WMHD, because there are better games out there for the other kinds of players. Chasing the hobby gamer, the "just throw dice" gamer is a lost cause. Too little, too late. There are better designed games for them. If anything that's causing this game to suffer (currently), it is the lack of ease with which players can get a game. In other words, the lack of Press Gangers, TOs, etc. There WAS an exodus of "competitive" gamers after mk3 was released because suddenly everyone's armies became either "illegal" or "functionally worthless", but I think this becomes less and less of an issue as more and more CiDs complete. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 5, 2018 21:30:59 GMT
In our area, not long after mk3 began we started up a local league (we call it a Scrum). It basically plays like a steamroller where you only play one game a week. It started out roughly 10 people, and has now grown to over 36. It has really motivated the community in our area and has increased tournament attendance dramatically. I am interested in this. How did you organize it in the event that not all players show up every week? We did something similar but only had 6 players and just played a steamroller out over 4 weeks and I really enjoyed it. I want to do something similar again but we have a lot of people who show up irregularly and I want to make sure they feel included/encouraged to participate even if it isn't every week. Well, first, we used a Facebook group to organize everything. We encouraged people to try and get their game in within the week, but left the where and when up to them. This makes it a lot easier for people to do. This means games are played largely without an impartial judge, and players have to set up tables and resolve disputes themselves. Most people use the group to organize their games (with posts tagging their opponent) and then post the results so everyone can see. We have also given extensions, sometimes as much as an extra week, to let people get their game in. This helped a lot when there were holidays, emergencies, etc cropping up in the middle of our season. Usually whenever there was an extension, if they finished in the middle of the week, we would post the next pairings immediately and give players the rest of that week and all of the following to get their games in. Sometimes players will need to concede or forfeit. If they do it too much they get warnings, or eventually get banned from future scrums (on the grounds that it's no fun for their opponents). The emphasis needs to be on easy and casual for the people playing. Games can happen any where and any time, and be understanding when games have to be forfeitted. We don't play for prizes and don't have entrance fees, so no one feels cheated. We even have league dice that people get for participating, and occasionally some players will donate prizes. On top of this, we encourage trash-talking and allow challenges for round 1. Great example of how some players keep it interesting: my real name is Jordan, and one of the other players has that name as well, so we challenged each other round 1 for the right to use the name. The loser was referred to for the rest of the league as "No-Jo" (I won, thank God...) Honestly, when I look at Warmachine and compare it other table-top war games, it's strength is the competitive balance and changing meta. It doesn't feel as good for casual games as other systems to me. So instead of trying to shoe-horn casual mechanics into the game, we doubled down on the competitive aspect and just made it easier for people to compete (not having to dedicate an entire day, making the location flexible, etc). We have lots of casual players too, guys who iron-man a single list the entire league, etc. By round 2 or 3, people typically end up playing opponents that are more their tier so it all balances out, plus the casual players get some experience against tougher opponents without getting overwhelmed. More experienced players often use the league as a test bed for their experimental lists, so they enjoy it too. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 5, 2018 16:49:56 GMT
I always am a bit surprised by threads like these because my meta has taken off in such a huge way since mk3, but... In our area, not long after mk3 began we started up a local league (we call it a Scrum). It basically plays like a steamroller where you only play one game a week. It started out roughly 10 people, and has now grown to over 36. It has really motivated the community in our area and has increased tournament attendance dramatically. I think two things happened to make this possible: 1. Mk3 was released and is continually polished to better balance and re-balance the game so that it isn't always the same few lists on top. This really improved the competitive depth of the game. 2. We (the players) found a format that lowered the barrier of entry (time commitment, finding other players, finding locations to play) and then promoted the ever loving crap out of it. Step 1 has already happened and is continuing to happen with every CiD. Step 2 is on you. Would you happen to have a pdf or something similar of the rules for your scrum league? We’ve done something similar in the past but would love to formalize it. It's more or less the same PDF as the steam roller, but you get a week to get your game in instead of all games on a single Sunday. Honestly, that last part I think is key to what makes it work for us. For most players, dedicating an entire day to a tournament sucks (myself included) but one game a week works great with scheduling. You get a consistently different group of opponents, fluffy-fun lists eventually end up playing fluffy-fun lists thanks to pairings after round 2-3, and you don't have to worry about everyone getting to the local FLGS for a game. Several of us have tables in our homes, and the Scrum-Master has three set up in his house. We use Conflict Chamber and Facebook to get it all organized. Works great, and as new players get more comfortable, they start going to tournaments. Bunch of us went to SOO. As we grew, we attracted a couple high level tournament circuit players too. But the easy format and smaller time commitment keeps it good for casual gamers too. I'm checking with our Scrum-Master, I'll get you a link via PM when I receive it. |
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