gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 21:24:09 GMT
Yea I am an idiot. Totally didn’t think about that No worries. To be fair, running such a list with only one AG could be a bit tricky, but I suppose sacrifices would have to be made to run two of these giant statues? Dunno. |
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gordo
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 21:19:06 GMT
It also feels like with a name like "Primal Terrors" that there should be more "monsters" available to it, like the Hellmouths (fluff wise, why are they in this theme???). So...
Blighted Wolves
Blighted Bears
Blight Mutants
Also, Ogrun Beastcaller
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 21:16:36 GMT
Ogrun Nephilim
Blighted Ogrun Coven (casting unit?)
Blighted Ogrun Ambushers
Disciples of Thagrosh (solos that preach for the Prophet/Messiah, inspiring nearby troops)
Ogrun Blightcarriers
Blighted Bokurs
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 20:54:56 GMT
The AG is free so it will not help you pay for the second SG Yes it will. You've got 70 points here contributing to freebies but you only need 60 to get max. So just make one of the Advocates a free choice after dropping an AG. 4 more points to play with, so if the SGs jump to 18 points or less you are safe. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 20:42:50 GMT
My issue with any point changes is that this is exactly 75 points Ancestral Guardian [0(5)] Ancestral Guardian [0(5)] Hakaar the Destroyer [0(7)] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Supreme Guardian [16] Supreme Guardian [16] So if the SG costs more than 16 points you basically remove the ability to run 2 in exalted and I love the idea of the list being able to run 2. edit: I guess you can drop the PGBH. Just run one Supreme Guardian? That's all I would run. But I see your point. I also think you could maybe get away with just the one Ancestral Guardian if you place him well. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 18:09:27 GMT
I never saw how durability was an issue, the games where it died and was complained about were mostly into really hard hitting trollkin. 19 30 boxes with access to +2 arm from an animus (and technically from the agonizer) seems super reasonable for its cost and output. As far as its abilities, my issue was mostly its raw damage output unsupported. It basically will kill any heavy or non garg huge base in the game every time it charges. With someone like rasheth, it will kill a garg trivially with buffs. I just find that a bit absurd for its cost and other abilities. Based off reports I read, I think it could use a bump in cost to 18 or 19, and then bump the gun to allow it to boost with souls to make it more enticing. The chances of it killing heavies on a charge unbuffed with full souls: Crusader: 66.7% Indictor: 10.5% Ironclad: 84% Stormclad: 68.4% Centurion: 19.9% Juggernaut: 21.1% Devastator: 0% Slayer: 88% Dire Troll Mauler: 84% (43.2% under krielstone) Warpwolf Stalker: 68.5% Wold Guardian: 35.3% Scythean: 91% Titan Gladiator: 79.4% Titan Sentry: 21.1% So most heavies that aren't built for defense it should kill unbuffed. Depends what PP are aiming at, but I think that's part of their design goal for it. Huge base, giant sword, should be scary in melee if you can't find a way to prevent it, or unless you are meant to receive a charge. I expect part of their intention with it was to make it a non-infantry way to crack armor that still contributes to free points. While not really needed in MoW, I think in Exalted it was direly needed. I think to do what they want it to do (Frontline melee beat stick, recursion machine) it kind of needs to be a bit sturdier. But I think if they want it to do this as well as its other roles, it needs to also cost more. Or lose some other roles. Honestly I think they should tone down its anti infantry strengths, since neither MoW nor Exalted really need help with that. If Thresher was intended to be a way to let it generate its own souls by killing friendly dudes, then it should just be replaced with a way to do that on its own: Soul Sacrifice: Up to three friendly faction models with souls within this models command range may be destroyed at the beginning of your maintenance phase. Something like that. Dunno, you make a giant base guy whose primary function is to use his giant sword, you either better give him the comfortable threat range to get there first or make it so he can take a charge. Otherwise I doubt he will ever get to do what you want him to. Doing this without losing any of his abilities at 16 points though seems too much. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 17:33:37 GMT
That aside, I still think PT is our best theme and probably the best choice for the majority of our casters. *I am not here to throw salt...but*
Most coherent theme; yes. But what is being said is my exact problem with it. You don't build a PT list around a caster's mechanics/spells/strengths/weaknesses. You build a ("cookie cutter") PT theme and them just pick the caster that sucks the least or mathces your personal playstyle. So at the same time it's the worst design and the best. It's never going to be super interesting to build, but can always fit exactly what you want it to be for you personally. If that makes any sense to anyone other than me.
*end of salt*
In terms of model count, yes it's low. We don't have suppression tankers or wagons. But limited counts are kind of the norm any more. At least the 2 major units in the theme are granted the specific benefit of the theme. So unless you're going full Chosen or Rotwing you will benefit. It's not like CotD where you roll a one to go first and your opponent rolls a 3 or higher; immediately loosing a theme benefit.
Both units are also good for the most part. Yes I would give up berserk for near anything else. I mean the only time I've ever used it was when the dude finally gets the kill he slaps his buddy in the back of the head for near auto-kill damage. We're never going to tank like Shocktroopers. Warspears kinda hit like Demo but without the crit suddenly-weaponmaster bit. Maybe we get some Ogrun bowmen somewhere in the distant future. IDK.
Yep. Hence my Legion stays on the shelf and I continue to play Skorne. Sad but at least I have options. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 15:19:46 GMT
Also I'm not suggesting PT is a bad theme. In terms of it's design it's our most coherent theme in terms of power and build structure compared to other "better" factions. I just think as usual it feels like something is just not quite there. Additionally because there are so few ogrun models and the way the benefits play out, I really dislike how every list I try to make looks identical no matter how hard I try. Yuuuuup. PT was basically the nail in my coffin for my Legion, who are now building dust-snowmen on my shelf they have been there so long. It's not that you can't make a good PT list, it's just that there is pretty much a clear "one best way" to do it and there was so little done to address my problems with the faction. That and I'd rather not have to buy two units of the outrageously expensive Chosen. But eh... Clearly there's some good lists out there, just nothing that ever worked for me or didn't seem done better by another faction. That aside, I still think PT is our best theme and probably the best choice for the majority of our casters. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 8, 2018 14:15:01 GMT
Looks like they ended this early after only 2 weeks. There were a lot of Battle reports, though most were from the same 4-5 users.
Seemed like the basic concerns were:
1. No Pathfinder makes it too difficult for it to ever contribute.
2. Arm 19 + 30 boxes + huge base makes it too difficult to stay alive in its frontline role.
3. It's got too many good abilities for its point cost.
4. Models that it brings back will immediately get their Vengeance attacks.
5. Gun is almost never used.
1. Pathfinder I think they will probably stick with their week 2 solution of Spd5+Pathfinder instead of speed 6.
I think they will combine 2 & 3 into a single solution, giving it probably more boxes or Ghost Shield and boost the cost to 18, possibly remove either Thresher or Siege Weapon (people seemed REALLY upset about Siege Weapon for whatever reason... I think if you let this model get close to your colossal you made egregious tactical errors...). Ghost Shield creates interesting choice between offense, defense, and recursion, so I think that could be very interesting.
I think 4 they are okay with, as it's a pretty neat trick and gives it more synergy in Exalted.
I think 5 they MIGHT address by allowing it to boost gun with souls also, again creating even more interesting choices of what to use your souls for (recursion? Offense? Etc), but I suspect they will just boost the gun range to 12 and leave it alone if they want it to see more usage.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Aug 2, 2018 13:26:03 GMT
I looked up the term "Spirit Bond" and found out a factor I never knew existed x.O; this is what happens when an MK1 player doesn't keep up with the rules. Spirit Bond, indeed, would alleviate some of the burden and allow you to safely keep a warbeast down 1 fury. I would still have to ask about RFP models, but it clearly states that all models need to be is medium or large based as well as dead x.O; Woah. It doesn't work on lessers? Or Gargantua? That's a good question about RFP too. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Aug 1, 2018 13:18:12 GMT
I would steer clear of Saeryn if at all possible. I don't see much play from Vayl1 either, but Abby2 and Kryssa seem pretty workable. If I were doing JML, which sort of implies the need for a mixed force (both beasts and infantry), I would probably choose Kryssa as she is mostly army ambivalent. If you are willing to attempt an all-beast force, Abby2 is your girl. She even makes Blight Wasps work, giving you access to units (and therefore unit-mulchers)
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Aug 1, 2018 13:12:03 GMT
instead of underselling the Rhinodon, I was upselling the lack of fury production by a Rhinodon and an Agonizer. In order to fill his fury back to full, Xerxis2 would have to max both the Rhinodon AND the agonizer, yet that eliminates his ability to transfer damage. Since we are talking shooting, we are looking at a flat 20 armor (WITH spikes) on Xerxis who cannot receive cover or concealment bonuses and can only have his base blocked by obsticals and other huge based models. I actually LOVE the Rhinodon; he was the first model I painted and a true force to be reckoned with that is commonly overlooked, but he doesn't work as a fury producer unless you have enough beasts to take the heat. Spirit Bond. In your scenario with a dead Tibbers, he would get one free fury from that, leaving one of your two beasts available to transfer to. But yeah, shooting is kind of an issue. Hopefully the one Shield Guard is enough to weather the storm until you get there, which given their speeds shouldn't take too long. |
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Jul 31, 2018 23:03:20 GMT
a big issue with your list, gordo, is that a single model becomes absolutely pivotal. If you kill tibs the list can no longer function. He's also a rather easy target, even with 21 arm (23 to melee with aggy) A full focus on just killing tibs will make them sacrifice maybe 1 of their own models? and starve Xerxis of fury. Also, X2 is just a big hulking target for ranged attackers. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait until you get up to 30 pts to put in a glad or sentry to make that list work. this is what I thought up of off the fly. Even though it's kind of easy to see what you are doing, it's not something they can really avoid. Morghoul2 -Cyclops Raider -Cyclops Shaman -Cyclops Shaman -Basilisk Krea Extoller Soulward Paingiver Bloodrunners I WAS going to run this in DOA but the Extoller wouldn't be allowed  Due to the type of lists you'll be facing, this is a perfect one for caster runs. With only 15 pts, they either have to sacrifice model count for power or put in a single unit that can be cleaned up easily by the paingiver bloodrunners. If they try to engage you too quickly, they'll also fall for the trap, as Morghoul2 and PGBR all have parry and can simply run around them and target their caster. The krea is just incase you have to face off against another ranged army or a possible paralysis after a key model has been hit with mortality. It's only weakness will be Legion and the combo of flight and eyeless sight. You are under selling the Rhinodon and Xerxes2 himself. Under ignite and pain giver he hits very hard, not to mention Xerxes2 feat. Part of the other reason I included Tibbers was fewer models to position, since your clock is so limited, and his pretty extreme versatility. But you do have a point, fewer models equals more lynchpins. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jul 31, 2018 22:57:26 GMT
you forgot something x.O; the despoiler doesn't have to kill them. they just have to die within 5 inches of the despoiler  You are right, I did forget that. It's not as severe a restriction, but it still feels like a bit like a gyp to me. |
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gordo
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My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Jul 31, 2018 21:42:02 GMT
if a despoiler kills a unit that would usually grant a void spirit you still get a void spirit x.O; Since the only limit is how many you can gain per turn, that means you can go beyond the field allowance as well. Despoiler is mainly talked about because of dark shroud, but when you are actually using him for void spirit spawns to be combined with Mordi, he's seriously pumped. The only issue is that if your opponent knows what he can do he'll be targeted heavily. Yes, I'm aware, but if you are relying on Despoiler to spawn your Void Spirits, that's a pretty severe restriction |
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Due to the type of lists you'll be facing, this is a perfect one for caster runs. With only 15 pts, they either have to sacrifice model count for power or put in a single unit that can be cleaned up easily by the paingiver bloodrunners. If they try to engage you too quickly, they'll also fall for the trap, as Morghoul2 and PGBR all have parry and can simply run around them and target their caster. The krea is just incase you have to face off against another ranged army or a possible paralysis after a key model has been hit with mortality. It's only weakness will be Legion and the combo of flight and eyeless sight.