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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 30, 2021 17:39:28 GMT
(As a random aside, as far as I remember, the false dichotomy of “one round a Khador jack” originated with Circle Orboros players way back on the old forums. It morphed from its origins of something like “Hey a buffed Ghetorix can do this!” to “well our heavies are trash if they can’t all one-round a Khador heavy without any support, buff our stuff” during the 2018 Circle CID and beyond. Seeing people lament “well my X can’t one-round a Khador heavy, it sucks” is annoying. Unsupported models aren’t supposed to one-round a Khador jack. That is the sole gimmick of Khador warjacks! Like, folks, you know the Khador player wants to play the game too, right?) Also want to say for so called 'Khador hate', why not to aim for ARM 20 by default, and ALSO consider Khador opponent, since if you face Khador then it surely have at least some warjacks with ARM 20(or highter). If most Khador players are using Juggernauts and Berserkers, then I think that it is nothing wrong to think about this.
Hey, do you see any Cygnar player that argue about discussing deal with 'ARM 22 with magical buff specially' or 'Storm Lances' and declare it a Cygnar hate? Perhaps someone says so somewhere I can't see, but I don't think that it is a public opinion. And you say that against ARM 20 may viewed as hatred against Khador. Is Khador needs to be special in this regard, not accepting the discussion aim toward yours while free to point the others? Is a faction really a sacrosanct? If you have some nasty thing then it is their right to think about this.
Although I don't think that ARM 20 is something nasty, though. It is rather common. Trollbloods have it. Wold Guardian have it. Rover have it. Some Colossals/Gargantuans have it. Just, it is the highest ARM value if you don't face buffs and/or Shield.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 20:07:11 GMT
(That’s the thing: it really does seem like Khador hate. Nobody talks about one-rounding that ARM 24 Centurion that can’t be charged. It’s always “Aaaaaah Juggernaut so scary oh no kill it in one activation or else it’s somehow magically going to wipe out your whole army!”)
Anyway. Something or the other.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Mar 30, 2021 21:49:49 GMT
(As a random aside, as far as I remember, the false dichotomy of “one round a Khador jack” originated with Circle Orboros players way back on the old forums. It morphed from its origins of something like “Hey a buffed Ghetorix can do this!” to “well our heavies are trash if they can’t all one-round a Khador heavy without any support, buff our stuff” during the 2018 Circle CID and beyond. Seeing people lament “well my X can’t one-round a Khador heavy, it sucks” is annoying. Unsupported models aren’t supposed to one-round a Khador jack. That is the sole gimmick of Khador warjacks! Like, folks, you know the Khador player wants to play the game too, right?) I'd like to say thank you for the replies. I did go into this not knowing whether Cygnar jacks were costed correctly or not and can accept that they may be fine. I did admit at the start that part of what inspired this thread was the Ret update which did a lot to their jacks and some of the comparisons are... Cygnar don't look good. The reason I 'quote' replied to this specific response though was because I feel you misunderstood my original main point. I did point out that it would take a serious buff like fury to make an ironclad one-round a khador heavy like a marauder or juggernaut but that wasn't the reason I'd included the scenario. It was the base instance where the ironclad is (charging) likely to deal 20 boxes of damage leaving the khador jack with 14 left and quite possibly all systems still functioning. It's this part that is the problem. If I can charge my heavy in, roll average with no misses and still have a good chance that the enemy heavy will be fully functioning to retaliate then I need to be able to afford follow-up pieces. If my jacks are on par, that is a trade I cannot afford because the enemy jack more likely to cripple or one-round my jacks. (If the khador heavy was a juggernaut and it has all systems then it will deal more like 28 damage if all attacks hit.) In an ideal world I would be softening up the enemy on the way in. It just doesn't seem to happen that way though. I'm tired seeing the hunter brought up as an armour cracker because it just never was that good or reliable for me. So long as you can afford the focus a charger would achieve similar output with greater reliability (because of more shots and all boosted) and more chances to spike damage. A hunter is also 10pts, which is the same some factions pay for heavies. The greater problem with chip damage though is that more factions can now afford and do invest in mechanics and repair options. Cygnar does have ways to prevent healing/repairs but they are rather niche and I've not actually used any of them so don't know how effectively they can be used. This leads us into the false dichotomy of cost. If we are to include other elements into our scenarios then we must also include equivalent value options for the other side as well. This is how it will happen on the table. If I bring an extra warjack to the table so that I can make sure the ironclad finishes off its foe then the opponent will also have an extra jack. The defender used to be a staple warjack in Cygnar but I'm prepared to argue that the destroyer is now a better jack, both as a ranged piece and melee option. If you assume they will have 2 focus a turn to boost attack and damage then the destroyer comes out the victor even though the defender gets the first shot. The defender deals 5-6 damage per shot whereas the destroyer will average 6-7 damage and the destroyer has 4 more boxes to boot. Unless you are fortunate enough to spike and/or cripple the destroyer's gun arm early the defender is taking more damage per shot and has fewer boxes for 2pts more. I rather like the AOE4 on the destroyer as it makes it able to kill multiple models that can be caught in the blast, needn't hit directly when targeting infantry (mitigating the low RAT) whereas the defender is a single shot cannon for sniping or dealing damage to tough targets. The rise and rise of shield guards and other anti-ranged tech has made ROF 1 guns a bit of a harder sell to me. When it comes to list building I find that my cygnar lists end up spending extra points to try and ensure the jack gets the job done. This means more points invested into dealing with that part of the enemy army. My experience has meant that I feel I'm investing more points and resources into dealing with one part of my opponent's army than they are to deal the equivalent piece in mine.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 31, 2021 1:32:26 GMT
(That’s the thing: it really does seem like Khador hate. Nobody talks about one-rounding that ARM 24 Centurion that can’t be charged. It’s always “Aaaaaah Juggernaut so scary oh no kill it in one activation or else it’s somehow magically going to wipe out your whole army!”) Anyway. Something or the other. Seriously, the NUMBER of targets is a factor on here. I have seen some threads about ARM 22 Stormwall, especially in MKII era. Not only durable, but also both Cygnar colossals are one of the best huge based models as well(yes it is part of the reason why our heavies are set aside) and it has damage box total two times of a heavy while its presense can threatening wide area. So even if it is only one model, it is rightfully fearful to also have such a high ARM value. It is not just only one model in the battlefield. Meanwhile, a lone ARM 24 Centurion that deny charge is one of the most durable brick heavy in the game, but it's only one through the list. Its threat range is only limited to the area it can charge and its punch is not so greater than an Ironclad. So while it's annoying one piece on the battlefield, but still it is mere an ONE piece among your opponent's asset. Deny or killing just a model is, you know, actually quite easy. Spamming Juggernaut is totally different story. You may face more than two Juggernauts. Even if you concentrate the fire to one-round it you have more than one living problem. Do you remember my thread above? Killing one is not that difficult, but HOW MUCH assets to do is the real problem on here, because of this. And it is before consider Berserker walls to protect Juggernauts. Berserker themselves are weak ARM 18 and pillow fisted while unbuffed, but it is a 8 points ARM 18 and 30+ large sized model that loves buffs. Aside, I have a lots of experience to against wall of ARM 20, but it's not Khador - I have played against my Trollbloods friend hundreds of times during MKII. The time it is silly to take more than two(or one) Juggernaut, and it won't be an issue at that time. And, seriously, I don't think that full of ARM 20 is broken. It is durable but with concentrated fire I was able to take out some by ranged attacks. It was just turned to the era that you expect at least two to three Juggernauts. Well, although ARM 20 theory not only aims Khador and even in MKII era the difference between P+S 17 and 18 for heavy was huge. And Mercenaries are always cried out or call for their Rhulic friends. Also while ARM 20 is not so uncommon, it can't be denied that Khador is one of the reason to make it more famous. Becuase the whole Juggernat chassis is AR 20. Not only the Juggernaut, but also Destroyer, Marauder, Kodiak, and Grolar shares the same ARM. Its before adding the buffs(yes if you have one - Khador is renown for their lack of ARM buff for jacks) so it is too easy to bring the ARM 20 heavies, and it is not only one. That's why I can't understand your attitude at all. Even if it is a Khador hate, so what? In the current era? Perhaps there are some people tired to deal with them. Not only Khador players are the only player, and it is the simple fact that you must keep in mind. Honestly, seriously, sir, in MKII the whole community was the collection of Haley2 haters. But did Cygnar players complained that why always hates them for it? I don't think so. It is not a secret that Haley2 is one of the worst enemy to face. Everyone knows it, especially for Cygnar - you don't want to not use your best asset, do you? Even if a choice of caster can earn the hatred, then why not to something not caster dependant? I was heard about tons of complainments for the junior, but it is fully rightful. Is it really makes sense to put a +3 ARM buff that is not depend on the caster? Only Cygnar players are agreed on it because they are used to do, and all the others will be jeering. The sum of the performance says it's only problem when it is combined with one big model, but Cygnar actually have it for a decade. I think that you should know how to understand the others. It's serious because you are not the only player in the game and your faction is not the only faction in the world. Seriously - and it is ironic to use the word 'serious' so easily - I am really sick to see complain about so called 'Khador hate' for there is really no reason to do. First, ARM 20 is not uncommon in the game. Second, it is the best ARM value for most things you may face, and most factions are not needs dedicated caster support to deal with it - you can't name much heavies and colossals with net ARM value of 21 or more without caster support, while such things do exists but the numbers are fewer than ARM 20 or less. These two parts already makes to consider to face ARM 20 a reasonable idea to list composition. And, yes Khador has some ARM 20 jacks and it adds the odds to encounter it. Then you will complain it for a Khador hate? Seriously? I don't get it. Try to play like you got a pair. (As a random aside, as far as I remember, the false dichotomy of “one round a Khador jack” originated with Circle Orboros players way back on the old forums. It morphed from its origins of something like “Hey a buffed Ghetorix can do this!” to “well our heavies are trash if they can’t all one-round a Khador heavy without any support, buff our stuff” during the 2018 Circle CID and beyond. Seeing people lament “well my X can’t one-round a Khador heavy, it sucks” is annoying. Unsupported models aren’t supposed to one-round a Khador jack. That is the sole gimmick of Khador warjacks! Like, folks, you know the Khador player wants to play the game too, right?) I'd like to say thank you for the replies. I did go into this not knowing whether Cygnar jacks were costed correctly or not and can accept that they may be fine. I did admit at the start that part of what inspired this thread was the Ret update which did a lot to their jacks and some of the comparisons are... Cygnar don't look good. The reason I 'quote' replied to this specific response though was because I feel you misunderstood my original main point. I did point out that it would take a serious buff like fury to make an ironclad one-round a khador heavy like a marauder or juggernaut but that wasn't the reason I'd included the scenario. It was the base instance where the ironclad is (charging) likely to deal 20 boxes of damage leaving the khador jack with 14 left and quite possibly all systems still functioning. It's this part that is the problem. If I can charge my heavy in, roll average with no misses and still have a good chance that the enemy heavy will be fully functioning to retaliate then I need to be able to afford follow-up pieces. If my jacks are on par, that is a trade I cannot afford because the enemy jack more likely to cripple or one-round my jacks. (If the khador heavy was a juggernaut and it has all systems then it will deal more like 28 damage if all attacks hit.) In an ideal world I would be softening up the enemy on the way in. It just doesn't seem to happen that way though. I'm tired seeing the hunter brought up as an armour cracker because it just never was that good or reliable for me. So long as you can afford the focus a charger would achieve similar output with greater reliability (because of more shots and all boosted) and more chances to spike damage. A hunter is also 10pts, which is the same some factions pay for heavies. The greater problem with chip damage though is that more factions can now afford and do invest in mechanics and repair options. Cygnar does have ways to prevent healing/repairs but they are rather niche and I've not actually used any of them so don't know how effectively they can be used. This leads us into the false dichotomy of cost. If we are to include other elements into our scenarios then we must also include equivalent value options for the other side as well. This is how it will happen on the table. If I bring an extra warjack to the table so that I can make sure the ironclad finishes off its foe then the opponent will also have an extra jack. The defender used to be a staple warjack in Cygnar but I'm prepared to argue that the destroyer is now a better jack, both as a ranged piece and melee option. If you assume they will have 2 focus a turn to boost attack and damage then the destroyer comes out the victor even though the defender gets the first shot. The defender deals 5-6 damage per shot whereas the destroyer will average 6-7 damage and the destroyer has 4 more boxes to boot. Unless you are fortunate enough to spike and/or cripple the destroyer's gun arm early the defender is taking more damage per shot and has fewer boxes for 2pts more. I rather like the AOE4 on the destroyer as it makes it able to kill multiple models that can be caught in the blast, needn't hit directly when targeting infantry (mitigating the low RAT) whereas the defender is a single shot cannon for sniping or dealing damage to tough targets. The rise and rise of shield guards and other anti-ranged tech has made ROF 1 guns a bit of a harder sell to me. When it comes to list building I find that my cygnar lists end up spending extra points to try and ensure the jack gets the job done. This means more points invested into dealing with that part of the enemy army. My experience has meant that I feel I'm investing more points and resources into dealing with one part of my opponent's army than they are to deal the equivalent piece in mine. The funny part is, Destroyer is a better Defender through the history of Warmachine. It is always the better one. Even now Destroyer is better than Defender, I think. RAT matters? Yes the higher is the better, but not quite if you can boost the attack roll and if the target is the enemy jack. I am half believe that, it's a win-win to exchange Defender and Destroyer in MKII - Cygnar can have a combined arms heavy finally while Khador have rare RAT 6 and SPD 5 heavy, and both factions have alternatives for them and are not bothered to use them because they may use Hunter or Behemoth instead even after the trade. At least Cygnar wins, for Destroyer is one of the sour grape for us. Defender is not that good jack so it is obvious that what Khador gains is not much compared by Cygnar, but its weird stats for Khador standard may give it an odd niche. I bet that some factions in MKII are even envy Triumph, which is totally sucks at the time. It is natural that everyone has the sour grape of the others, because each factions have the different tools.
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Post by michael on Mar 31, 2021 3:43:21 GMT
You guys are writing novels. I’m not able to keep up! I wasn’t directing the “one round a Juggernaut” at anyone here. Very few heavies in the game reliably one-round another. Out of the entire non-colossal Khador stable, I trust a Behemoth with 3 focus to get the job done (most of the time, probably), and that’s about it. And, like... 25 points. He’d better do that for 25 freaking points and being restricted to one theme. Khador players in general don’t take mechaniks. I do, but I’m the exception. Khador also has an appalling lack of Shield Guards. (Sorry, Rager. You are sad trombone sound for 10 points, dude.) Any chip damage you deal — say, from a Defender or Charger for a couple rounds on the approach — will be there, and the Ironclad will finish it off. Cygnar also has disruption, though, yes, I know, theme restrictions. But for real, between auto cortex damage and disruption, I promise the Juggernaut won’t be able to kill that Ironclad. Yes, you’ve got to work to set it up, but it’s brutal when it happens. Anyway... I have nothing else right now. Maybe somebody else can jump in!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 31, 2021 11:40:24 GMT
If I bring an extra warjack to the table so that I can make sure the ironclad finishes off its foe then the opponent will also have an extra jack. If you charge two Ironclads in against two Juggernauts and all you manage to do is kill one Juggernaut, well now your opponent only has one Juggernaut left to your two Ironclads. And his Juggernaut is highly unlikely to cripple both your jacks (we are talking unbuffed models in a vacuum here; if we're talking buffed models or other support then we need to start again and throw out the "first Juggernaut is not crippled" idea). You are ahead in the piece trade. Besides, hot dice happen; getting the alpha means the defender might just never even get the chance to swing back, so it's a big advantage even if statistically your opponent has "good odds" to survive uncrippled. Yes, in real life it doesn't usually work out that way. Real life is too complicated, too many permutations of buffs and support models and possible tactics. Point is... actually I'm lost, I no longer know what the point of this thread is. Should Cygnar jacks be cheaper? Or more powerful? Or not? I dunno. It does feel sometimes like some people seem to think that their unbuffed melee heavies should be able to reliably one-round Khador-statline heavies (and they call out Khador heavies by name a lot of the time), and to a Khador player who's jacks are as slow as it gets by base* and have almost no access to armour buffs and suck at shooting so can't do work at range, that doesn't sound like the way the game should work. And Droop, I don't appreciate being told that I have a victim mentality or something for saying that. *Yes, we have speed buffs. That doesn't mean we're not paying (in points and stats and access to buffs) for robust jacks, so I feel it's reasonably to expect them to actually be a little bit robust.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 31, 2021 11:46:18 GMT
Khador players in general don’t take mechaniks. I used to take Mechaniks. But then in MkII I found out about Beast Handlers. It was actually sickening to compare the two. I've been very disillusioned with our mechanics since then. The only time I consider taking mechanics these days is if I plan on killing them myself to feed Alexia souls. I dunno, maybe I should re-think things, but if I have 4 points then there's better solos, and if I have 3 points then maybe I can free up a point, or just upgrade a jack.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 31, 2021 12:03:31 GMT
You guys are writing novels. I’m not able to keep up! I wasn’t directing the “one round a Juggernaut” at anyone here. Very few heavies in the game reliably one-round another. Out of the entire non-colossal Khador stable, I trust a Behemoth with 3 focus to get the job done (most of the time, probably), and that’s about it. And, like... 25 points. He’d better do that for 25 freaking points and being restricted to one theme. Khador players in general don’t take mechaniks. I do, but I’m the exception. Khador also has an appalling lack of Shield Guards. (Sorry, Rager. You are sad trombone sound for 10 points, dude.) Any chip damage you deal — say, from a Defender or Charger for a couple rounds on the approach — will be there, and the Ironclad will finish it off. Cygnar also has disruption, though, yes, I know, theme restrictions. But for real, between auto cortex damage and disruption, I promise the Juggernaut won’t be able to kill that Ironclad. Yes, you’ve got to work to set it up, but it’s brutal when it happens. Anyway... I have nothing else right now. Maybe somebody else can jump in! So what is the evidence of so called 'Khador hate'? I request for one. Seriously I am already tired to deal with this and I do not want to do it again. Man, seriously, really, face it again and again make me SICK.
Also I do not think that Khador is sacrosanct, sir, unlike you. Nor any other factions as well(include Cygnar, of course). Man, keep saying 'my faction is fine and you must not dare to attack us' is actually an offense against the others. Especially for when it comes from nowhere. What shadow glove hits you from nowhere? If it were existed, of course.
And even if it is a some kind of hatred, so what? I do(or did) hate some stuffs what I think it is really bad, sure. But so do the others against my stuffs for some reasons, and it cannot be helped if it is nasty enough. For example, an ARM 22 Cygnar colossal easily become the meta problem on the local club. Well, that's why I hate the very idea of colossals, since Warmachine: Colossals. Then, someone may hate it for its brokenness. And do you really think that it is right to stare back and 'I am totally fine and it is your problem.' and when they attempt to think about deal with it then got angry and says 'why hate me?' What is this? Is it even a sane Idea? If you want to keep using this and don't want to play the game too tight, then so be it. But it is wrong to blame them for what they rightfully does.
Also I hope that you will understand that an ARM 22 colossal may cause far serious problem than having around three ARM 20 warjacks depend on the matchups. At least ARM 20 warjacks are can be killed by one round if you put enough resource. But an ARM 22 colossal is almost impossible to deal like that without good matchup.
And the real hatred is yet to start, and I wonder is there any start. ARM 20 is not the patent of Khador - although Khador have many default ARM 20 warjacks, but that's not the only thing. Also it is hard to deny that Khador's jack spam makes the players to cracking ARM 20 more since the new edition, for Warmachine factions are have not attempt to do that until then because of their focus inefficiency. Well, watch over the rise of Khador jack spam is actually a reason to need to deal with ARM 20 well, but it is not the only reasons as I said agains and again. Also, even if we are cautious against this, why it is connected to so called Khador hate?
Again, even if it aims Khador Juggernaut chassis specially, so what? Is it even a problem, even if we actually did? Do you really think that discuss to deal with Storm Lances, Cygnar Colossals, or Flame in the Darkness are a direct attack against Cygnar? Well, as a Cygnar player, I am not lost my mind enough to let my mind skyrocketing to such an absurd thinking. It is just natural to think about the solution against the others. And you simply made something natural as an attack against you. Just why? Do I need the permission to breathe, sir?
Man, I am the one that object to raise the point cost of Juggernaut. Since it is SPD 4 warjack, it may enjoy some prestige for always charged first. MAT 7 is good? Yes it is good but it is not that important in heavy to heavy melee combat. A Crusader, which is MAT 6, with Hymn of Battle is actually works better than a Juggernaut.
I am not kidding. Please respect the others, and you earn the respect.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 31, 2021 14:01:52 GMT
Sigh. This has turned toxic. I'm out. Michael, I suggest not bothering to respond. It's not worth wasting time on this guy.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 31, 2021 14:56:04 GMT
Sigh. This has turned toxic. I'm out. Michael, I suggest not bothering to respond. It's not worth wasting time on this guy. All I can say is, I am sorry for derail the topic. I... cannot imagine the better word.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Mar 31, 2021 18:03:00 GMT
It wasn't my intention to write massive posts but trying to explain clearly and concisely with brevity is something I fail at.
The original intent was to discuss and cover the value/effectiveness or lack thereof with Cygnar's jacks. It has been derailed by in-depth comparison with Khador who it could be argued are also stuck on the sidelines for good jack balance.
I see a lot of Mk II being mentioned from the Khador side which is worrying because that is very out of date. I may not have played for the year but Mark 3 came out in 2016 (when a lot of things started going downhill badly but that's another matter entirely!) so referencing Mk 2 era is bad. Khador doesn't have a lot of in-faction shield guards (rager and bulkhead plus Beast if you took Sorscha) but it does have access to mercs and their shield guards. You can stuff 3 shield guards into any list that can take a morrowan unit. Not saying you will but that you could.
To briefly come back to the Cygnar vs Khador theory-hammer. In the newly revised set-up there are 2 ironclads who wail on a juggernaut and comfortably one-round it. The second juggernaut walks up and swings on the Cygnar jacks. Doesn't need to charge so 4 swings with the axe and one punch. Against the ironclads ARM 18 with no misses and the implausible but for the sake of sanity strictly average damage rolls the juggernaut will deal 36 damage. Also comfortably one-rounding an ironclad but the thing about this overkill is that the juggernaut could make a swing on the other ironclad. Either with its fist and leave the axe to kill the first ironclad or leave both ironclads alive because the first one has lost all important systems.
It's important to remember that ironclads can lose their main weapon after just 8 damage has been dealt and the fact its hammer is on the left hand makes it more likely to lose that system due to the way wrap-around works. A juggernaut axe deals 8 damage on average so if it rolls 1 for location then it cripples the hammer in one hit.
If we assume though that the juggernaut focused only on one jack and killed it. Does an ironclad that doesn't need to spend a focus to charge get the job done on the juggernaut? 4 swings with the hammer and one punch will (keeping to strictly average rolls) deal 21 damage. The juggernaut is alive with 13 boxes and quite possible all systems still intact. Why do I think it will have it's systems still functioning? Because the ironclad's hammer deals 5 damage per swing which only completely fills columns 1 & 6 on a khador heavy. Columns 2-4 will have a box left at the bottom, so it always takes at least 2 hits from the ironclad to cripple a system on the juggernaut, usually 3 and these must land on columns that are adjacent to each other. The juggernaut can potentially cripple the ironclad's main weapon system with 1 hit with average damage so as it rolls the right column!
That wasn't as brief as I'd hoped...
I hold no Khador 'hate' (although my perspective is one-sided), I tend to use them as a benchmark because ARM 20 is a benchmark number. It skews a lot of dice math because of how many attacks can be dismissed due to failing to crack armour. A hand cannon is usually regarded as a pretty decent weapon. The charger comes with equivalent of two plus powerful attack for all the boosts! Pitting it against ARM 20 though it is at dice -8 so does 2-3 points of damage on average, unboosted POW 12 need to roll quite above average to do any damage at all. Even the ironclad with it's hammer has the potential to deal 0 damage if you roll snake eyes. High armour (wherever you find it) can be a huge problem because of how much of the opponent's forces can be dismissed because they simply can't deal damage reliably.
A core part of my struggles with Cygnar heavies is my dislike and dissatisfaction with the ironclad. I've never gotten satisfactory work out it, part of it will be me. I'm not really expecting much so that doesn't help but as solid as it's output on paper is, ARM 18 with 30 boxes just doesn't seem to get it across the table unless I put arcane shield on it. It's amazing how quickly plink damage from enemy guns accumulate on it and that tendency for the hammer to get crippled hurts it a lot. A boosted hand cannon can do it in a single shot. Arcane shield can help, although given the escalation in the ranged game, quite a few things will still punch though and I've been distressed by how common effects that either ignore or remove spell have become. Not all factions can take these tools but enough so that relying on arcane shield isn't a good strategy anymore.
If I take one of Cygnar's cheap heavies it will be the hammersmith, ARM 19 may not be enough to stop it taking damage but it is more likely that the jack gets across the field with all systems. The hammersmith is a cute jack that I wish worked more reliably than it does. P+S 17 is ok and chain-attack slam is cool. Beat back and follow-up are also things. Poor thing lets me down so frequently though because dice will be dice. If you miss with any of those first 3 attacks then you aren't slamming the enemy away. Even though it should be pretty reliable, I'm still faced with a number of games where double 1s stopped my plan dead and if that happened on the initials then it also loses you the chain-attack. Against ARM 20 (non-faction specific) it's dealing damage at dice -3, resulting in about 4 damage per swing and thus (going back to earlier in this reply) you aren't completely taking out columns with each swing. This makes it more likely that the foe will not have crippled systems and be mostly functioning once your finished unless you are lucky enough to scrap them. Charging, the hammersmith will deal 23-24 damage to an ARM 20 target, so providing every attack hits, it does more damage than the ironclad. I like the hammersmith more than the ironclad because of this and the extra point of armour. I still had a lot of games where things went wrong and my greatest criticism of the jack is a pseudo fluff one. (Why, I mean really why, when you have are equipping your jacks for battle is one given this cool POW 7 quake hammer but give the other a pair of POW 5 hammers?! Why doesn't the hammersmith have a pair of quake hammers?) I'm not sold on the claim that the hammersmith is 'better' than the marauder but it's very much an issue of my perspective.
For all that we've had a long discussion over the Khador vs Cygnar jack debate here, since Michael did say they had a 'modest' Cygnar force, what jacks do you field and do you find they perform well for you? Do you like Cygnar's jack roster and which ones see the most use and do any have no place in your lists?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 1, 2021 10:42:23 GMT
Yeah, since against armor is not about silence it by single penetrated shot - as the armors on our real worlds, although a penetrate of High Explosive Anti Tank round is not enough to kill the entire crews or make the tank inoperable unless it hits the critical sections, but an AP round can does - and is requires a series of anti armor blows, only one point of increasement in ARM matters very much. It is no secret that most heavies and colossals are have ARM 20 or less, and ARM 21 or higher is not so widespread and is either needs for Shield and/or ARM buff, so it is safe to say ARM 20 is the most list's target number. For melee beatstick heavy, it needs at least P+S 18, I think. That's because in this level you are always better to buy an additional attack rather than boost the damage roll. Actually P+S 17 does marks more damage to make an attack roll(unboosted P+S 17 has average 4.027 damage on a hit against ARM 20) but it's only around 4 damages. P+S 18 has an average of 5. As pointed out already, the jack can makes up to 4 melee attacks on its turn. So 4 damage turns to 16, 5 damage turns to 20, and 6 damage turns to 24. That's why P+S 17 MKII Nomad was terrible and its 18 now. 24 is not enough to silence a heavy, for even Ironclad chassis have 30 damage box, but it is enough to cripple the target. Speaking of Ironclad, it gets average 7 damage for each P+S 18 hits. ×4 and it is 28, and if you add average 3.11 damage of its fist means an Ironclad can one-round an Ironclad. What a glass canon it is? Didn't 'the best mind of warjack engineers in West Immoren' ever considered the concept of immunity zone? Just because it's ground, not naval? Yes, it is not so glassy as Slayer chassis and Warpwolfs, though, but it can't hide the fact that ARM 18 with neglectable DEF is not enough to make it a heavy. I'd rathet call three of them the large sized lights instead. A light that hits like a heavy, strictly speaking.
ARM 18 is also vulnerable against 2 trooper CRA against infantry guns. A 2 trooper CRA with military rifle(POW 11) causes average 2.2 damage on a hit. A tank, that is threatened by infantry in ranged? Is it really called a tank?
Anyway, check the others' heavy and its in faction support that is not caster dependent it is sure that our heavies requires a buff to run. Cygnar: SPD 5 12/18(Ironclad) or SPD 4 11/19(Centurion). An instance of Arcane Shield. Protectorate: SPD 4 10/19(Crusader) or SPD 5 10/19(Reckoner). Either cannot be targeted by non-Magical ranged attack, cannot be targeted by magic attack, or +2 damage. Khador: SPD 4 10/20(Juggernaut) or SPD 4 10/19(Devastator). Juggernaut has nothing else, and Devastator chassis has their own individual defensive techs. Cryx: SPD 6 13/17(Slayer), SPD 6 12/17(Seether) or SPD 5 12/18(Leviathan). Nothing, except for cheaper PC of Slayer. And Steady on Leviathan? Retribution: SPD 6 13/18(Shyeel) or SPD 5 12/19(Vyre). Better overall damage box and slow to suffer a first crippled sysyem on Shyeel chassis. Also can have Force Barrier from Artificer. Mercenary: SPD 5 10/18(Nomad), SPD 5 11/19(Mangler), SPD 5 12/18(Mariner), SPD 5 11/18(Toro), SPD 4 10/19(Ghordson Basher), SPD 4 9/19(other Ghordson and Wrought), 10/17(Monstrosity). Largely nothing at all, except for cheap cost - especially for Nomad which is an outdated and decommissioned jack and intentially has pathetic DEF/ARM value, and Monstrosity. Some warjacks has a Shield, though. Convergence: SPD 4 10/19(Inverter) or SPD 5 11/18(Conservator). Conservator has capable ARM but that's all. Crucible Guard: See Toro. Trollbloods: SPD 5 12/18... no, SPD 5 12/20. Circle: SPD 6 14/17(16)(Warpwolf), SPD 6 13/17(Shadowhorn), SPD 5 12/18(Gnarlhorn), SPD 5 12/19(Rip Horn), SPD 5 10/18(Woldwarden), SPD 4 9/20(Woldguardian). Nothing aside some beasts' good DEF or ARM, and fury tax. Skorne: SPD 4 10/19(Titan), SPD 3 11/19(Aradus), SPD 7 14/16(Archidon), SPD 5 11/18(Rhinodon). Most of them does not have innate defensive techs but Aradus have Carapace and Rhinodon has Spiny Growth. Also Skorne can use Krea to buff DEF/ARM against ranged attack. Legion: SPD 5 12/18(Carnivean), SPD 7 14/16(17)(Seraph). No defensive measure save for Spiny Growth on Carnevian and good DEF&immune to knockdown of Seraphs. Minion: SPD 5 12/18(Hog), SPD 5 12/19(Wrastler), SPD 5 10/20(Blind Walker), SPD 4 10/18(Spitter) or SPD 4 10/15(Horror). No defensive techs in general, but Spitter has Carapace and Swamp Horror has Impervious Flesh and immune to knockdown. Grymkin: SPD 4 10/19(Cage Rager), SPD 6 13/18(Clockatrice), SPD 5 13/16(Skin&Moans). Infernal: SPD 5 11/19(Tormentor), SPD 7 13/16(Soul Stalker).
So, if Cygnar didn't had a Journeyman Warcaster, aside character heavies, fast heavies and heavies with good maneuver stat/ability(such as raw SPD 7, or net DEF of 14 or ARM of 19 or more at least against ranged), what left that compared by Ironclad chassis are Leviathan(Cryx), Nomad/Mariner/Toro/Monstrosity(Mercenary), Convervator(Convergence), Toro(Crucible Guard), Woldwarden(Circle), Carnivean(Legion), Hog/Horror(Minion), Skin&Moans(Grymkin). If you add ARM 18 or less but not DEF 14, Slayer(Cryx) and Clockatrice(Grymkin) are also included.
And, drop the models with proper ranged weapon(in this case they may set behind and shoot the enemy, instead of rush through the enemy) or have good net ARM such as having a shield or defensive animus, what remains are Ironclad(Cygnar), Freebooter/Subduer/Warden/Wrecker(Mercenary), Scythean(Legion), War Hog/Swamp Horror(Minion), Skin&Moans(Grymkin). For ARM 18 or less groups, add Slayer/Reaper(Cryx) and Clockatrice(Grymkin).
Well, it is true that Ironclad is not the weakest one. Also, if you include Arcane Shield then Ironclad simply exits the 'fragile heavy' club immediately. But I don't think that it is fine without Arcane Shield. The problem is, why we are bothred to use an Ironclad and put Arcane Shield on it, for we have only one instance of it? Put it on an Ironclad means your other heavies(if it exists) are feels naked. For some more points, you can get a Stormclad, Centurion, or a colossal - which is the best choice.
And as I said already, with the similar points you may take a Hunter or Charger.
Anyway, most of our lights are already fine, and perhaps even on the high ground among lights in the game. You know, many lights, especially for light warbeasts, are sucks, but most of ours are already good enough. Colossals, on the other hand, are too powerful and too cost efficient compared by heavies. And... heavies are fine if you only see them one by one, but on the list building all of them are compete the chance to become the only one recipient of Arcane Shield.
So... I don't think that we play the list with stompy robots. Some other factions can, but I don't think that Cygnar is fit for it. Nor we will see a Cygnar heavy in the competitive list while we have a colossal. This is the problem in the fundamental structure of Cygnar, and you will not expect that it can be changed either. Change it is like as removing Choir of Menoth/Krielstone Bearer on Protectorate/Trollbloods and replace it by something else. Such a change can make a faction totally different.
For the topic, are they expensive? No they are not. Most our jacks are just do what it costs. And if you discount them because there is only one Arcane Shield, then it is surely broken. Such as Ironclad with Point Cost of 10 or 9 would be a horrible nightmare. 9 or 8 means they are become the better Berserker that able to punch through heavies even without a buff and are faster. And it is also stupid to having more than one instance of Arcane Shield that is caster independent, or it results an ARMY of Ironclads each have ARM 21, that makes most players sick. But do you really think that a Crusader without a Choir really a thing? I don't think so. That's why we avoid heavies.
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Post by marxlives on Apr 1, 2021 17:15:17 GMT
I've not been able to play for a year, my connection to the game is tenuous at best and these boards have been so quiet it's been like wandering around a mausoleum. After the recent update to Retribution I took a look at the game again was just left feeling very forlorn about Cygnar as a faction with particular concern directed at our jacks. The Ret CiD certainly did a lot for their jacks and comparison makes me rather bitter. However I've been away from the game and my perspective on such things isn't the best so I'd like to hear other opinions about it. Are Cygnar jacks overpriced? Feel free to mention examples of ones you think are worth their points as well but I'm struggling outside of the Centurion and our colossals. Is it a problem that can be fixed by lowering their point costs, or do they need complete reworks in order to have a place? (Please give examples if you can.) Cygnar also has now become a faction with one of the poorest, most limited set of options for jack support (certainly as far as the main factions). Particularly in regards to buffs, Cygnar has Arlan Strangewayes and that's about it I think? To extend the range a bit, what is the view on our battle engine? If you it has been hard getting games in try Wartable and join their Discord. Most of the games are 25 point use the Brawlmachine format to help people who are new or have been out of the game for awhile get back in. wartable.online/ . This way you try out a different builds and see why the jacks are over/under priced or maybe they are priced right. I think most of Cygnar jacks are priced they way they are is 1. still the best ranged game around, 2. more jack support outside of warcasters, 3. access to more mercenaries than any other faction, 4. Warcaster feat interaction in regards to the point scoring via flag, objective, zone type. It is a more holistic approach than take jack X on empty field and pit it against equal point jack Y. If you want to do a Wartable game and set up some scenarios to see if Cyg jacks are overpriced throw a list at me drop me a PM and we can figure something out.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 2, 2021 8:33:30 GMT
I think most of Cygnar jacks are priced they way they are is 1. still the best ranged game around, 2. more jack support outside of warcasters, 3. access to more mercenaries than any other faction, 4. Warcaster feat interaction in regards to the point scoring via flag, objective, zone type. It is a more holistic approach than take jack X on empty field and pit it against equal point jack Y. If you want to do a Wartable game and set up some scenarios to see if Cyg jacks are overpriced throw a list at me drop me a PM and we can figure something out. Thank you for the invitation. I did take a look and try at wartable 9-10 months ago but found it just wasn't something I could use and enjoy. Even trying an extremely low model count game like Judgement (which they also have a patch for) so gave up on trying to play remotely and just let things slide. I'm not on any discords and only really use email and forums for online chat. Being able to see things on the table is very different and I look forward to a time when I can do that again.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Apr 7, 2021 17:46:58 GMT
On Khador jacks, part of the issue with them is exactly that the only real way to make them survivable is to spam them. This means the most survivable warjacks are the cheapest ones (Marauder, berserker chass don't count)
Then there's a lack of variation. Part of this is there's two chassis that are anti-synergetic with themselves, which is insane. The Berserker chassi: Dirt cheap heavies meant to be absolute discount cannon fodder. Main gimmick: Insanely cheap. Drawback: Explodes if used and becomes completely point inefficient. Aaaaaaaah and the models are so nice to. The Clamjacks: Extremely high arm. Main gimmick: Extreme arm making them actually a bit survivable. Drawback: If they actually attack outside of slams and such they become less survivable than a significantly cheaper marauder. I'll give that at least there's some limited use to these ones but it's still frustrating.
And the other reason is there's very little variation in the basic stats of the warjacks. No lights. Same speed on everything. Minor variations on arm outside clams. Same everything basically. The result is a lot of redundant jacks and a very fixed gamestyle for the jacks we do have. Also the character jacks are almost entirely obsolete, and when they aren't obsolete they are locked within a single theme list.
Sad times.
Anyway, on to cygnar!
Yeah I think lots of your lights look interesting and that you have some really nasty tricks with a couple of heavies (high def gallant, the centurion no charge arm crazy ones, buffed colossal).
But honestly if you want really premiere warjacks it's probably ret that got the good stuff.
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