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Post by michael on Apr 7, 2021 21:59:50 GMT
As an aside, re: Berserker chassis and Butcher2
This is what happens when you break Warmachine’s core game mechanic (using focus to change the probability curve), but fail to give the models serious compensation in other areas.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Apr 8, 2021 12:49:57 GMT
Feels to me armor cracking is much more available in the game nowadays, you got tons of very available debuffs (Hermit and Void Archons working for a ton of factions, also lots of in house arm debuffs) as well as tons of damage buffs.
I think overall things just got a lot less survivable. So if a jack dies faster today, that likely pushes the price a bit above what is comfortable.
Skimming trough the heavy warjacks of cygnar, a lot of them does not look particulary more survivable than khador jacks, not without defensive techs like a cloudwall or some spell or such.
The exceptions would be: Hammersmith: It's only 12 points and a p+s that is at least relevant. You could take two or three of them for some minor jackspam. This feels roughly equivalent to a khador marauder. Centurion: This seems like a standout defensive jack thanks to polarity shield and the shield. I'd like one for myself. Gallant: The okayish def (13) means any def increase it can get becomes very relevant. Even better - it has sacred ward, making it immune to a huge selection of debuffs, a very strong defensive ability.
So if you want to take an expensive jack, the things to look at would be centurions and a gallant, and gallant only if you could give it more def. The exception to me would be if you had a jack that was very versatile, able to remain relevant in almost any situation.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 8, 2021 13:13:42 GMT
And we actually have two - Stormwall and Hurricane. The problem is they are colossal, not heavy.
I think that Centurion is still OK even without Arcane Shield. Net ARM of 21 as well as deny charge makes it quite survivable. Gallant was also a famous choice for Haley3 DEF skew before theme force was functional, you know. Although it is very, very risky, but you may still do it with Jakes1(who is a Morrowan model) on Flame in the Darkness.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Apr 8, 2021 13:31:23 GMT
I'd definitely run two centurions, even if only one of them had arcane shield. Especially if I had some more control elements in the list to just mount it all on top of each other. Or even a single Centurion on its lonesome. What's a competitive Cygnar list nowadays anyway?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 8, 2021 13:47:42 GMT
www.loswarmachine.com/warmachine-tournament-listsTristan Young (5th Place, Cygnar) Lord Commander Stryker (+28) (Flame in the Darkness) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Freebooter - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Toro - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) Captain Kara Sloan (+28) (Gravediggers) - Minuteman - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Minuteman - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Minuteman - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Hunter - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Hunter - PC: 10 - Hunter - PC: 10 - Hunter - PC: 10 + Malvin & Mayhem - PC: 17 JPGREAT1 (1st Place, Cygnar) Stryker 1 (+30) (Flame in the Darkness) - Gallant [17] - Toro [13] Stryker 2 (+28) (Flame in the Darkness) - Charger [9] - Freebooter [9] - Toro [13] Setomidor (4th place, Cygnar) Stryker 1 (+30) (Flame in the Darkness) - Blockader [33] Haley 3 (+25) (Heavy Metal) - Charger [9] - Charger [9] - Thorn [13] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Charger [9] Lieutenant Allison Jakes [0(4)] - Ol' Rowdy [18] Lieutenant Allister Caine [0(4)] - Ace [10] So... Mercenary warjacks, seriously. Most top Cygnar lists are using Flame in the Darkness, and you cannot put Journeyman Warcaster on that theme. And, the theme limits the number of Cygnar(and Khador) warjacks so if you want to use more than two warjacks it must be Mercenary warjack. Although there was some lists that using a colossal with Stryker1(who has Arcane Shield). Funny thing is one of the top list among them has a Blockader on Stryker1. Else we may stick with lights. Sloan Hunter Spam also doesn't rely on Journeyman Warcaster, since no one is good recipient of Arcane Shield, so she can play Gravediggers, which is an another Journeyman-less theme. Asides, feel free to blame Morrowan Battle Priest. No one expects that it keeps Shield Guard that was already dropped during CID session.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Apr 8, 2021 17:39:17 GMT
Ahahahaha on our end the most common Khador lists seem to be vlad2 doomreavers and vlad3 menoth.
The last Haley3 list looks fun at least.
And theme lists continue to be screwy.
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Post by michael on Apr 8, 2021 19:00:42 GMT
Ahahahaha on our end the most common Khador lists seem to be vlad2 doomreavers and vlad3 menoth. The last Haley3 list looks fun at least. And theme lists continue to be screwy. Specifically, it was "All Vlad2 + Doom Reaver army clones, and oh yeah, one random Vlad3 leading 100% Protectorate stuff, and one Zerkova1 Flames, and one Kozlov Armored Corps." Maybe there was something else that I don't remember.... But yeah it was basically the Vlad2 party.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Apr 9, 2021 7:34:30 GMT
But yeah I think with the plenty arm debuffs and overall model bloat and the rule system massively leaning towards offense instead of defense and the very low variance of survivability of cheap versus expensive jacks, expensive jacks need ALOT in order to be worth the points. Both Cygnar and Khador may suffer from that but I doubt they are the only ones.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 11, 2021 10:35:19 GMT
And Cygnar does not have spammable cheap expendable. It isn't our style so we can't expect for one either.
Berserker is an exceptionally spammable one, but it is allowed just because it's on Khador, the faction without light warjack, and its raw stat is pitiful so what you expects to it is nothing more than what you have paid for. Also you won't fear for only one to two Berserkers. A 11/18 warjack is an easy prey. It is scared if you have ton of Berserkers and shields your more expensive stuffs. And we all know Cygnar is not the faction to use it.
Why I am talk for Berserker? As I said above, reduce the cost of our warjacks for not having many instances of Arcane Shield may results our cheap heavy warjacks a better Berserker. And unlike Khador, we also have plenty of good light warjacks already. Think about PC 9 to 10 Ironclads and Hammersmiths are smashing though the enemy. A Berserker that able to kill the heavy without a buff? It is nothing but a nightmare, that must not come to the reality.
So I have no idea how to fix our heavy jacks. Our heavies are well costed even now. Although they looks somewhat lacking, but only reduce the cost will cause the problem as I said above.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 24, 2021 15:04:04 GMT
Cygnar jacks too expensive for the 'spam' a particular (cheap, efficient, buffs readily available) model meta? Yeah, probably, poor Brickhouse. I see those '5-8 of the same warjack/warbeast armies' posted quite frequently in many of my factions threads.
I believe Cygnar would fare quite a bit better in a Highlander/MtG Commander style format, where the compounding advantage of opposing armies ability to spam would be eliminated. Ahh, to make Cygnar more spam-able or a format for spam to be disallowed?
I remember a 2v2 game vs two PP staffers at Lock & Load where my two multiply-buffed Swamp Horrors one-rounded two Centurions, I think the staffer was genuinely surprised it could happen. Which in turn surprised me! I don't consider 2 = spam, but it did hi-light that compounding effect of buffs on a specific model fielded in multiples.
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Post by michael on Apr 24, 2021 20:54:58 GMT
Cygnar jacks too expensive for the 'spam' a particular (cheap, efficient, buffs readily available) model meta? Yeah, probably, poor Brickhouse. I see those '5-8 of the same warjack/warbeast armies' posted quite frequently in many of my factions threads. I believe Cygnar would fare quite a bit better in a Highlander/MtG Commander style format, where the compounding advantage of opposing armies ability to spam would be eliminated. Ahh, to make Cygnar more spam-able or a format for spam to be disallowed? I remember a 2v2 game vs two PP staffers at Lock & Load where my two multiply-buffed Swamp Horrors one-rounded two Centurions, I think the staffer was genuinely surprised it could happen. Which in turn surprised me! I don't consider 2 = spam, but it did hi-light that compounding effect of buffs on a specific model fielded in multiples. ... what buffs were on those Swamp Horrors? Did you get a number of Crit Amputations or something?
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 25, 2021 18:45:48 GMT
Cygnar jacks too expensive for the 'spam' a particular (cheap, efficient, buffs readily available) model meta? Yeah, probably, poor Brickhouse. I see those '5-8 of the same warjack/warbeast armies' posted quite frequently in many of my factions threads. I believe Cygnar would fare quite a bit better in a Highlander/MtG Commander style format, where the compounding advantage of opposing armies ability to spam would be eliminated. Ahh, to make Cygnar more spam-able or a format for spam to be disallowed? I remember a 2v2 game vs two PP staffers at Lock & Load where my two multiply-buffed Swamp Horrors one-rounded two Centurions, I think the staffer was genuinely surprised it could happen. Which in turn surprised me! I don't consider 2 = spam, but it did hi-light that compounding effect of buffs on a specific model fielded in multiples. ... what buffs were on those Swamp Horrors? Did you get a number of Crit Amputations or something? I imagine it would be Rask stacking rage and fury. So those swamp horrors get P+S 22 on the beak and P+S 18 on the tentacles. With Rask to strip off arcane shield or any other spell it's not hard to see how they'd one-round those centurions.
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Post by michael on Apr 25, 2021 21:05:55 GMT
Works for me. I don’t remember when Rage changed to be not Self again.
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Post by darkangeldentist on May 28, 2021 17:54:53 GMT
Well it seems that the subject is dead, although I feel sad to see that the lists competitive lists provided show only a single Cygnar heavy between them (Gallant is a merc officially) and a character at that. In fact there are as many khador heavies in Cygnar lists as there are Cygnar heavies. Which conveys something to me. Whilst there is general agreement that the centurion is a solid jack it didn't make it to the lists shared here. I'm left rather disheartened and morose.
The lights do appear popular, also it seems clear that the firefly and sentinel to not count among the favoured.
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Post by michael on May 28, 2021 23:46:08 GMT
The Firefly is great once you actually have electrical damage types in the army....so, Storm Division.
The Sentinel (and by extension, the Cyclone) have never been all that favored. Too many people see random ROF as a bug instead of a feature, and blah blah blah etc. and so forth.
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