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Post by wasted79 on Jul 21, 2020 18:31:52 GMT
Hi guys!
I just returned (again) and discussing about the Berserker chassis infamous Instability rule is making me craving to debate about our ''underappreciated'' models.
We'll probably not seen another CID for Khador before a while, but what do you wish to see improved on it?
With our good faith (morrowan or menite?) some good ideas could eventualy inspire the gods of Warmachine. (who knows? archons are walking among us, now )
For me:
1- Iron fang Uhlans (too expensive for 5 guys that are just a threat on the charge)
2- Black Dragons (just alwats choose the Vanilla Pikemen over them, it's supposed to be Pikemen Elite so a little more omph and even maybe a raise in cost for it)
3- Demolition Corps (even their UA i prefer the more durable shocktroopers for 2 pts more, they need a speed rule)
4- Kossite Woodmen (prefer the winterguard for the same price, what a rat4 pow10 could do other than cannon fodder?)
5- Warjacks pts cost revision (i said broadly since i always pick the same ones, i'm just a casual player but i cannot justify to pay 17-18 pts for those jacks)
6- Berserker chassis (for unstable and all we already said about it)
7- Markov (too costly for what he does)
8- Arcovich (too costly)
I have no complains about our Warcasters in general (besides Karchev but i almost never used him)
Our theme forces feels right. (even more so compared to other factions, i struggle with Everblight ones and a little with Retribution Jack theme where you can just access to 50% of them (house shyeel vs vyre)
Overall, i'm really satisfied the way they handle MK3.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 21, 2020 18:49:50 GMT
Careful my friend; this kind of thread, while starting off innocently and with good intentions, can lead to bitterness and dissatisfaction as people end up focussing on the negative aspects of the game.
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Post by michael on Jul 21, 2020 19:53:25 GMT
This road leads to sorrow and madness.
Trust me.
There’s a lot of stuff that could use a review, but it isn’t in the cards.
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Post by wasted79 on Jul 21, 2020 19:56:30 GMT
Careful my friend; this kind of thread, while starting off innocently and with good intentions, can lead to bitterness and dissatisfaction as people end up focussing on the negative aspects of the game. I'm probably too optimistic I never understood the point of being overly negative on a game. Games are made for people to have fun, right?
My intention is just to day dreaming about what a model could been with modified rules
Example: Kossite Woodmen with a less powerful Monster Hunter rule added (like boosted dmg rolls vs warbeast) They would been useful against light warbeast and included in a few list VS hordes factions
I'm sure everyone got a few ideas like this and will be fun to share!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 21, 2020 20:52:52 GMT
Nobody PLANS on being overly negative, but if you sit around looking for flaws, you'll find them. And these are flaws we can't do anything about, so focussing on them just cements them in your mind and makes it harder to enjoy the game.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't complain or anything, personally I'm pretty big on venting my frustrations, I just feel that afted the Mk3 CID thing happened people became more focussed on "fixing" models than on enjoying them, and it created a lot of negativity and arguments on the forums. I don't really want to say that start up again, and the subject of this thread feels like it could end up being a step back towards that sort of attitide; I mean, it's a bit of an invitation to remember things you're not happy about and complain about them.
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Post by michael on Jul 21, 2020 22:05:38 GMT
Chiefly, the problem lies in these facts: a) Khador isn't likely to see a CID cycle any time soon, so this leads to desires that quite simply cannot and will not be fulfilled, and disappointment and bitterness as a result. This faction's next major release cycle is at least a year out, based on what we know from the stated release cycles and what was shown (or not shown, in our case) in the annual video a couple weeks ago. b) Many players in the Khador forums have fairly different views on what needs improvement, and also wildly disparate opinions on how those things should change. We're not Circle, campaigning as a ridiculous unified voice for utter broken nonsense in the Tharn CID ("warpwolves should be able to one-round Khador heavies, because Circle has always struggled against Khador!", et. al.), and getting a lot of it as a result. We all might generally agree, for example, that Butcher2 doesn't work well, but ask 20 different people how to fix him, and you'll get 37 different, mostly incompatible, answers. (And at least 35 of those will lack merit.)
c) Quite frankly, changing old stuff doesn't make Privateer any money. They've sold probably 98% of all the Iron Fangs, Butcher2's, Kossite Woodsmen, Greylord Ternion, and Berserkers they're ever going to sell. They have a significant financial incentive to simply make new stuff (see: Yuri 2) instead of going back and tweaking old stuff. That's pretty much regardless of how much any of us want it. Unless something breaks the game, or unless something new gives Privateer significant incentive to revise an existing model, "not broken, even if there are flaws" is good enough.
I'll even throw in a Point D, as someone who's been in the game for nearly 15 years at this point.
Khador had years -- literal years -- of dominance early on. The faction had a lot of very strong players who learned to abuse the newest, shiniest things and break the game wide open. I get a sense -- and maybe this is just me imagining things -- that there is a strong internal feeling of "We learned our lesson, never again" regarding Khador releases and general power level.
Blah blah blah, etc., etc., and so forth. Stuff, and possibly things.
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Post by Havock on Jul 22, 2020 3:51:35 GMT
Much as I would love them to revisit LOS, I think the list just needs tweaks. Give a few more requisition points, drop some points and make it our "melee quantity list".
That it's old doesn't matter, if a new player wants to play cool dudes with explosive spears, he should have a decent place to play them in.
Most of our other stuff is ok or better, I guess.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 22, 2020 8:56:47 GMT
Also I'd point out that our last cid actually involved not a single new model, yet Doomreavers still ended up decently competitive ever since. And as it stands the best models to come out of the current legion CID will most likely be legacy models as well (Kryssa, Fyanna2, Bethayne1, Legionnaires, Swordsmen, Zuriel). People are quite down on the virtues, leaving only Bethayne2 and the Blarchons as well received new models.
So really i wonder if the assumption that CID ought only to incensivise buying new models is true.
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Post by Havock on Jul 22, 2020 12:45:27 GMT
New models sell new models. CID is to keep the game "alive".
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Post by michael on Jul 22, 2020 15:17:51 GMT
To add: Wolves of Winter got the CID treatment because Khador needed another usable theme in the Champions format. We couldn’t keep cycling among Jaws, Winter Guard, and Armored Corps forever. Hungerford/ et. al. aren’t dumb; they knew that the old Wolves of Winter was not good. This falls under the “or something else changes” trigger I mentioned above. Would I LOVE for Legion of Steel to be even half as fun to play as Claws of the Dragon was in MK II? Of course! But, to be realistic, I do not believe it will happen any time soon. (And this is coming from someone who owns more Iron Fangs than most of you combined. ) Something something something, et cetera.
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Post by auraco on Jul 22, 2020 17:40:49 GMT
I'd like a look at our legacy stuff, our unsed theme, legion of steel, winterguard kommand and jaws of the wolf.
Legion of steel: Point cost adjustment would go a long way, but I'm not sure it would be enough, 21 point for the full black dragon unit, just why? What are they even suppose to do with sidestep when they have only one attack. Where do they want the theme to go? Option A make it a good theme against melee: Just give vengeance to the units in the theme Option B make it a good theme against shooting: Just give carapace to iron fang models I don't think either of these two options would break the game, iron fang stuff still has very victim stats and relying on shield wall isn't super impressive on single wound models Allow markov to be a requisition choice, he's only 7 points and there are already theme that can take multiple 7 point option as a req choice
Winterguard Kommand: give us a theme bonus, the current one is just a very bad version of the theme bonus in secret masters in circle. The advance move used to be the best reason to play this theme. That's one theme that I could see being given the: solos in this theme gain mark target treatment. Or make assault kommandoes usefull and give one unit ambush in theme, the point cost drop they gave the unit in the last dynamic update doesn't make them an attractive option for semi accurate dudes with low pow attacks Fix the requisition choice, allow me to take 3 rocket as a requ choice, or at least take 3 flamer in my unit of kommandoes
Jaws: Kayazy assassins could use either a point cost drop, or a stat buff, def or speed, but at the moment there is no way the base unit is worth it at 15 points, the underboss adds a lot of value to the unit, but I'm not sure it's enough to make the unit worth 19. Just compare the base unit to mage hunter infiltrators and... well they're just better on all front, except they don't have anathomical precision, I'd trade anatomical precision for all the rules and stats the infiltrators have. Widowmakers are overcosted, drop them to 7 point and make them a req choice, FA1 limits abuse here, it would just mean that jaws list would field them. Currently at 2 points per dude they are too hard to justify when they are basic def 14 dudes with no defensive tech. Rework the forge seer, a 4 point empower bot is not worth it, it's telling that we can field the model in 3 different theme and none of them actually want one on the table.
If we go into other specifics... Rework the man o war chariots, people were calling them bad during the CID and they didn't change, the only thing was them being possibly oppressive when benefiting from the advance move from the theme, but they can't do that anymore. Give the assault chariot back the first ruled that were previed, a spray gun instead of a blast gun (bombardier are already here for blasts) and give it volley fire, and before you call boosted sprays on a BE OP, just look at the TEP in convergence. Otherwise armored corps is fine, it's the 2019 scenario package that hurts the theme more than individual models in the theme that makes it less interesting to play these days. The theme doesn't like to spread and the scenario are as wide as they've ever been, that's not something that could be changed easily considering the bricky aspect of armored corps
Wolves is fine, other than the already mentionned forge seer every single model in that theme has a use on the table Wotof is fine, turns out menoth models are really good Flame in fine, these models are good and the vengeance in the theme is pretty strong with the casual access to shield guard in the vengeancing unit.
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Post by michael on Jul 22, 2020 20:45:49 GMT
Does everybody remember way back when, when I said that the Khador community’s opinion about things needing improvement was incredibly fragmented? Case in point. Auraco, you’re out of your gee-dee mind! I disagree with everything you said except for the general feeling about Legion of Steel! (The Forge Seer is our only in-faction counter for incorporeal solos in Jaws, for example. Good luck dislodging a gremlin swarm from a flag with all the copious magic weapons available in that theme. You are the only person I have ever heard describe that model as “bad.”) But I’m not here to start a fight! I just want to point out that my thesis has been validated!
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jul 23, 2020 8:00:51 GMT
(The Forge Seer is our only in-faction counter for incorporeal solos in Jaws, for example. Good luck dislodging a gremlin swarm from a flag with all the copious magic weapons available in that theme. You are the only person I have ever heard describe that model as “bad.”) Man have you forgotten about our lord and saviour the Greylord Adjunct? Forge Seer bad.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 23, 2020 8:54:57 GMT
I feel like the Forgeseer is probably about as good as any jack marshal in the game, except for the fact that Khador doesn't really have jacks that are good to marshal. We don't have lights, and our heavies mainly want speed and lots of focus. Jacks that get marshaled are usually cheap gun jacks, or maybe affordable heavies with lots of initial attacks to benefit from marshal buffs (mainly just thinking of the Cygnar Cyclone with Gunmage buffs here).
What I'm saying is, don't hate the player hate the game...
um... where the player is the Forgeseer and the game is jack-marshaling in Khador...
Basically our jacks just work better with our Juniors than with our Forgeseer, and the niche of "high quality magic blessed attacks" is less important now with the Adjunct. I don't know if this is something that can be fixed with a simple buff; the Forgeseer already buffs his marshalled jacks with a passive (Jack Marshal benefits), a Drive (Magic Blessed), and an action (Empower). I don't think they'll give him a fourth buff and I don't think we're getting light warjacks anytime soon. I suppose they could let him choose between two or three Drives so he's less situational? Or make his Drive an action so he's battlegroup jack support rather than a marshal.
Anyway, I like his design, even if you really need an extra buff or two to make him really work (Boundless Charge, Empower, Dark Sigils and Crush is pretty effective into something that thought Arcane Shield would keep it safe). Take him with a Strakhov, a Sorscha, or a Vlad I guess.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 23, 2020 9:16:53 GMT
For me it's got to be Legion of Steel. It's by far and away the least interesting theme in Khador, and possibly in the game.
It suffers in so many ways. It's unit choices are spearmen, spearmen with better shield art, spearmen on horses. There is no tactical flexibility or nuance.
Its support choices are all passive; they simply auto-buff nearby dudes.
It's the only theme where you can't take any (non-mechanic) jack support, which further limits your build options.
It's the only theme where there are no non-jack ranged options.
So when all is said and done there's no interesting choices at listbuilding and there's no interesting choices when playing. Also doesn't help that single wound infantry have to be very good to get by these days.
I don't even mind if the theme doesn't end up particularly good, just please, for the love of the Empress, make it interesting!
EDIT: The Forge Seer is great, but I agree with Soul; we don't have the tools to fully utilise it. If Berserkers ever get free charges then I'd be tempted, but apart from an occasional Destroyer I don't marshal much in Khador
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