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Post by auraco on Jul 23, 2020 10:36:50 GMT
I'm not even sure when was the last time I saw a marshalled jack on a forge seer, I think it was in 2018... Jack marshalling is bad and most of the jack marshalls are still bad, this puts the forge seer in a bad niche to begin with, combine that with the fact that our jacks are not great marshall targets and you end up with forge seer being empower bots most of the time. And you end up with a model that doesn't get taken except in Jaws of the wolf because it used to be the only option, but now with Ol Grim, Yuri2 and since the eliminators are a requisition option, I'm pretty sure the forge seer will just disapear from competitive list all together.
Even with the man o war cid and the wolves of winter cid, I don't think I've ever seen one in play in those theme outside of in a Zerkova2 list, just to give koldun lord access to hoarfrost.
So yeah, I'm still convinced the model needs a serious buff to be considered an option in competitive lists.
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Post by michael on Jul 23, 2020 13:42:11 GMT
(The Forge Seer is our only in-faction counter for incorporeal solos in Jaws, for example. Good luck dislodging a gremlin swarm from a flag with all the copious magic weapons available in that theme.  You are the only person I have ever heard describe that model as “bad.”) Man have you forgotten about our lord and saviour the Greylord Adjunct? Forge Seer bad. The guy tethered 7” from your warcaster and also dies easily to blast damage? I’m talking about a marshaled jack benefiting from Dark Sigils. |
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Post by michael on Jul 23, 2020 13:48:23 GMT
I'm not even sure when was the last time I saw a marshalled jack on a forge seer, I think it was in 2018... Jack marshalling is bad and most of the jack marshalls are still bad, this puts the forge seer in a bad niche to begin with, combine that with the fact that our jacks are not great marshall targets and you end up with forge seer being empower bots most of the time. And you end up with a model that doesn't get taken except in Jaws of the wolf because it used to be the only option, but now with Ol Grim, Yuri2 and since the eliminators are a requisition option, I'm pretty sure the forge seer will just disapear from competitive list all together. Even with the man o war cid and the wolves of winter cid, I don't think I've ever seen one in play in those theme outside of in a Zerkova2 list, just to give koldun lord access to hoarfrost. So yeah, I'm still convinced the model needs a serious buff to be considered an option in competitive lists. 1) Our experiences are different. I have seen plenty of Forge Seers running warjacks. 2) Competitive lists are not the only lists. Every model cannot and will not be an optimal choice for some hypothetical competitive list. 3) You will be sorely disappointed if you expect Privateer to rebalance old models every time they release something new, especially with Riot Quest releases. |
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Post by wasted79 on Jul 23, 2020 16:53:46 GMT
It would require a support model that grant a focus and remove disruption as most other faction got, maybe?
Forge Seer with a Destroyer and one focus, could it been viable?
(i know the solo will cost another 3-4 pts)
I'm thinking about a greylord mechanic, repair/lend a focus/magic ranged attack
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Post by wasted79 on Jul 23, 2020 17:01:02 GMT
As for the Pikemen, does a 2nd weapon like a shield bash pow9 could been a good idea?
They become more effective at removing cheap units without improving them vs high arm ones.
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Post by michael on Jul 23, 2020 21:14:09 GMT
It would require a support model that grant a focus and remove disruption as most other faction got, maybe? Forge Seer with a Destroyer and one focus, could it been viable? (i know the solo will cost another 3-4 pts) I'm thinking about a greylord mechanic, repair/lend a focus/magic ranged attack Forge Seer + Destroyer is pretty solid. With a Boundless Charge somewhere and the right JM bonus, it does work when it’s not shooting. The Decimator is a good choice too, as is Behemoth. |
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Post by michael on Jul 23, 2020 21:24:57 GMT
As for the Pikemen, does a 2nd weapon like a shield bash pow9 could been a good idea? They become more effective at removing cheap units without improving them vs high arm ones. The problem here is that, 98% of the time in Warmachine, shields are not offensive weapons. Models with shields get ARM bonuses, not second attacks. Basically only a few character solos attack with their shields. Also, Iron Fangs wouldn’t be meaningfully different with a second attack. There are several issues with the theme, but the major problem with the theme is that the models are too expensive. Our benchmark Iron Fang list was “Claws of the Dragon” in MK II, and you could fit effectively one more IFP unit and a solo in a list compared to now, even counting free requisition options. Outside of Claws of the Dragon, we had run + Shield Wall + mini feat shenanigans and Advance Move that could get the IFP across the table and applying scenario pressure immediately, and brutal feats that could back up that pressure (OW1’s old feat, for example.) Iron Flesh plus their better DEF (13, previously) meant you’d end up with DEF 16 ARM 18+ dudes who were incredibly hard to dislodge. There are a lot of issues with Legion of Steel, but I’m not going to try to recount them while posting from a phone.  The summary is: models too expensive, weak solos, weak character unit, poor theme benefits, severe structural weakness of fielding a melee-only majority single-wound-infantry theme (with no speed shenanigans). |
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Post by Havock on Jul 24, 2020 0:20:24 GMT
The simplest way of putting LoS's issue is that it has no place.
If you want a dudeswarm you take WGK.
If you want hard-hitting melee dudes you take Doomies.
If you want to have a resilient infantry force with actual support you take AC.
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Post by michael on Jul 24, 2020 1:51:19 GMT
The simplest way of putting LoS's issue is that it has no place. If you want a dudeswarm you take WGK. If you want hard-hitting melee dudes you take Doomies. If you want to have a resilient infantry force with actual support you take AC. That's part of it too.
There are...many problems with Legion of Steel. I am actually doing productive hobby work right now, and I know that talking about the problems is just going to lead to disappointment, because nothing will change, so I'm going to save myself the heartbreak of imagining "what could have been". |
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Post by auraco on Jul 24, 2020 12:13:27 GMT
The severe lack of variety in legion of steel isn't helping, the two main unit do pretty much the same thing, it has one cavalry option, one character unit option, three solo option, two of which are character, all it does is melee attack with no other fancy stuff, no magic attack, no guns. I'm not even sure what niche they'd try to fill with them.
One idea could be to merge winterguard kommand and legion of steel into the ''mundane infantry'' list and just have pikemen and winterguard in the same list, this way you could get a little variety in the list at least.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 24, 2020 13:48:53 GMT
The only sort-of gap I can think of is that we don't have an actual jack+infantry combined theme. Along the lines of Scourge or Faithful Masses where the warjacks gain a bonus in a predominantly infantry list.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 25, 2020 11:15:37 GMT
Personally, i am partial to the idea of kossites picking up either mark target or prey. The former would be very thematic as well given they function as scouts to the jacks in Jaws, so they should be able to tell the jacks (or their controllers) where to shoot.
Prey obv would make them more standalone pieces but it fixes their poor offensive stats.
I also agree with auraco in that the forge seer also needs something as being a 4 point empower bot is simply not good any more in the current game. Power monkeys and vassals demonstrate that empower is not an expensive rule and it get even worse if you compare the seer to other free cards available in themes. Eliminators and yuri2 are better in jaws, koldun lords, ternion and orsus are better in wolves. Tankers are better in AK. So you will always pay 4 points for a seer. Plus the fact that you miss out on BG buffs and you are always outsourcing a jack to sorscha in jaws (the most popular choice is the destroyer, so thats 18 of your list dedicated to non BG models) to begin with and points suddenly get very very tight.
Now if the Seer is marshalling a jack then thats a different story, because 4 points for an amazing drive + empower is definetly good.
It's just that our jack don't take as well to marshalling as merc or ret jacks do. So if our cheaper jacks went up in power level and especially if Behemoth went down to 20-21 points i'd at least consider the seer.
Probably only with Strakhov1 in Jaws, because free charges good, but it's something at least.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 25, 2020 13:09:15 GMT
I want to try a Forge Seer with a Rager. Rager getting +2 to hit on top of +2 from aiming, and then a focus point for boosting damage, means it's gun can actually do something (if they get close enough...), and in melee you get more value from Crush due to having 3 initial melee attacks. I figure that's probably about as good as we're going to get from a marshaled jack?
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Post by michael on Jul 25, 2020 13:56:29 GMT
Where’s my copy/paste version of “no one understands Kossites”, anyway? Out of curiosity: how many people have actually used Kossites? At least once? Five times? Ten times? |
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Post by Havock on Jul 25, 2020 16:24:45 GMT
I don't even own them.
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You are the only person I have ever heard describe that model as “bad.”)
The summary is: models too expensive, weak solos, weak character unit, poor theme benefits, severe structural weakness of fielding a melee-only majority single-wound-infantry theme (with no speed shenanigans).
