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Post by Charistoph on Nov 17, 2019 7:21:47 GMT
While we are probably looking at a good long while till Kingmaker's, and hopefully after Hammerstrike and Operating Theater get their limelights, Kingmaker's is still very old and out-dated. From there, what would you change?
For myself, I would seek to try and pull it back from being the poor-man's Soldiers of Fortune or Resistance. Right now, it's basically Trenchers supporting Steelheads. While including the Steelheads would make sense from a historical perspective, I think that they aren't needed any longer, and I would change it from, "this is what Magnus used in the second Coup" to, "This is what the Warlord is using in his operations these days." Is that a crazy idea or could it work out?
Dropping Steelheads is painful, what can be used to fill in the gaps?
In replacement of the Halberdiers we go to the Sword Knights. These guys are being left out of the army in general these days, so are turning to extra work on the side by Magnus' supporters.
For the Riflemen, we have the Trenchers, and let's bring in the Trencher Weapon crews as well for their support so we have some artillery.
I honestly can't think of what could be a good replacement cavalry that would fit in the same vein as the Sword Knights. Either drop the idea of cavalry all together, or start going a bit further afield.
Now, let's start talking about adding the Khador and Protectorate partisans, the Kayazy and Idrians. Would they be a good and interesting mix in this, or should they be stuck in Irregulars? Should we consider any other Characters to this list?
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Post by mydnight on Nov 17, 2019 9:56:39 GMT
I'm quite okay dropping all steelhead units to gain access to all trencher units. Commandos and express teams are pretty good. Damiano wouldn't mind sword knights either. It would be nice to get access to more solos though.
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Post by jagius021 on Nov 17, 2019 14:15:58 GMT
I agree that adding more trencher stuff (including a master Gunner...and the dog, because dog) would open up options but I think still having steelhead is important for fluff. Maybe change theme benefits from boomies get ambush to "one unit". Maybe get real crazy and allow a warjack to ambush, that would really play into the idea of magnus' style of carefully laid traps, his warjacks around the battlefield!
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 17, 2019 15:55:23 GMT
The only other trencher solo I could see added besides the Gunner and Dog would be the Buster. The others are characters and a jr Warcaster.
Runewood is probably too much of a goody-two-shoes to join the Kingmakers, so he's out. Other than some other Merc solos, I can't think of anyone else.
Would the allowance of the jacks from the old Kingmakers make sense? I don't have the list any more and I can't seem to find a copy online.
I was thinking about the Ambush rule, and I was thinking to update the special rules to: 1. Non-character Warrior models gain Tough and Feign Death.
2. Character units gain Ambush.
This would limit Feign Death from Croe's and Boomhowlers, but by the same token, Croe's could Ambush now. It would be more helpful if we added more Characters to the list, but I don't know if that is needed. Adding Tough to the non-characters would allow Feign Death to have a little more impact.
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on Nov 17, 2019 16:47:04 GMT
pirats
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Post by dichotomedes on Nov 17, 2019 17:45:38 GMT
I wouldn't mind a return of mk2 features such as ambushing sword knights and the ability to take certain basic cygnaran jacks in the battlegroup. Access to the new trencher units as well as their solos would be great, too. I agree that steelhead elements can be dropped. Really wish Rangers would get a UA, maybe with a countermeasure mini feat
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Nov 17, 2019 21:46:36 GMT
Could use Saxon Orrik to get some Pathfinder in the theme.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 17, 2019 23:03:23 GMT
Gaining access to any two non character Cygnaran jacks would really open Magnus2 up in the theme. Dual centurions sound like fun!
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Post by ozvelpoon on Nov 18, 2019 14:44:14 GMT
I kind of like the idea of an 'oceans' theme in khador parlance. Kingmaker gets access to all character units and soloes from mercenaries and cygnar that make even remote sense, with a few non character for flavor such as the partisan units and trenchers.
For benefits i think we stay close to original; ambush/feign death/tough maybe some kind of battlefeild manipulation like placeing an impassable terrain feature?
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 18, 2019 14:52:48 GMT
With enough many Characters and we're straying in to Irregulars territory. Part of the point is to make Kingmaker's distinct without rewriting another Theme to do it.
I was thinking even including a Khadoran unit or two would make it interesting, but since the Kayazy are the only ones that really operate outside the command chain, we're looking at partisans again.
Someone on Facebook suggested Skorne units. Unfortunately, aside from Bloodrunners (spies and assassins) or Nihilators (literally combat monks), I don't see this being a regular occurrence. Venators might apply on the outside, but I see the Praetorians and Cataphracts holding still. All and all, it would make it interesting, but I'm just wary of adding too much from outside what has been established for Magnus' work in his old Agenda and Kingmaker's Themes.
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Post by michael on Nov 18, 2019 19:03:32 GMT
The first thing to remember is that Kingmaker’s Army is not Bad Seeds.
Kingmaker’s Army is very specifically the theme force representing the army that Magnus assembled during Doug Seacat’s Blood of Kings book.
From the fluff perspective, it is weirdly missing pirates. Broadsides Bart and sea dogs prominently figured in the book but are missing in the theme...
From the gameplay perspective, I would probably add the Steelhead weapon crew units as requisition choices.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 18, 2019 20:36:26 GMT
The first thing to remember is that Kingmaker’s Army is not Bad Seeds. Kingmaker’s Army is very specifically the theme force representing the army that Magnus assembled during Doug Seacat’s Blood of Kings book. From the fluff perspective, it is weirdly missing pirates. Broadsides Bart and sea dogs prominently figured in the book but are missing in the theme... From the gameplay perspective, I would probably add the Steelhead weapon crew units as requisition choices. The first thing to remember in this thread, we've moved passed that point, both in the story lines and in the game. It is either time to update it or drop it all together. Nevertheless, the same links that were in Bad Seeds (thank you for reminding me of the name) were what lead to the Kingmaker's event, and so we're using those to move on from there.
That being said, if we want to keep it locked back in time, bringing the sea dogs forward and improving the Requisition options would definitely need to be addressed. Adding the Steelhead crews to that takes us back to being another Soldiers of Fortune, though, so I don't know how good of an idea that specific option would be.
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Post by michael on Nov 18, 2019 21:42:19 GMT
By all means, make the argument that fluff is irrelevant to the fluff-based theme force. I am sure that will go over well with the devs. : p Eh, but what do I care? This is wishlisting and completely meaningless. Why should I get bent out of shape? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on Nov 19, 2019 1:27:35 GMT
By all means, make the argument that fluff is irrelevant to the fluff-based theme force. I am sure that will go over well with the devs. : p Eh, but what do I care? This is wishlisting and completely meaningless. Why should I get bent out of shape? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) geting bent outa shap is liek al u do
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 19, 2019 2:04:02 GMT
By all means, make the argument that fluff is irrelevant to the fluff-based theme force. I am sure that will go over well with the devs. : p Eh, but what do I care? This is wishlisting and completely meaningless. Why should I get bent out of shape? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
Some units and organizations take on names which no longer carry the meaning they once had. In this case, the "Kingmaker's" title goes from being the objective of the organization to their statement of what they had accomplished. I even stated this in the OP. In the current fluff, the original organization has lived its usefulness. Oddly enough, Magnus is still acting as a Mercenary, but is he really as restricted as he used to be, especially with the contacts which helped create this group?
One should also remember that PP has always moved the fluff forward in time, not always locking it to one frozen instant like the Warhammers used to be. So, please continue on spouting about "irrelevant fluff".
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