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Post by dichotomedes on Nov 19, 2019 10:18:43 GMT
It really should just be Cygnar as Mercenaries. It would be what Magnus does with a black budget. Unlike LR, it should have access to Cygnar solos and warjacks. Maybe leave out the Stormknight elements.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Nov 19, 2019 10:57:04 GMT
Lets just stat up Magnus3 as a Partisan Cygnar caster and scrap the Kingmakers theme altogether.
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Post by michael on Nov 19, 2019 13:41:50 GMT
By all means, make the argument that fluff is irrelevant to the fluff-based theme force. I am sure that will go over well with the devs. : p Eh, but what do I care? This is wishlisting and completely meaningless. Why should I get bent out of shape?
Some units and organizations take on names which no longer carry the meaning they once had. In this case, the "Kingmaker's" title goes from being the objective of the organization to their statement of what they had accomplished. I even stated this in the OP. In the current fluff, the original organization has lived its usefulness. Oddly enough, Magnus is still acting as a Mercenary, but is he really as restricted as he used to be, especially with the contacts which helped create this group?
One should also remember that PP has always moved the fluff forward in time, not always locking it to one frozen instant like the Warhammers used to be. So, please continue on spouting about "irrelevant fluff".
Eh, whatever. I mean, read the text accompanying the theme force in War Room. (Mildly paraphrasing) “This is the army Magnus assembled in 609 AR and used during the Second Cygnaran Civil War”. That is about as locked into a particular point-in-time as it gets! And Warhammer just doesn’t care. I vaguely recall a situation in which one Space Marine chapter got a new book that detailed how much they hate psykers and refuse to associate with them, and the codex contained, you guessed it, new psyker models for them! Of course I freely admit I might have the specifics wrong. Warhammer only vaguely exists in any orbit that intersects with mine, and that was second-hand “Warhammer players griping about stuff” that I overheard while enjoying a game of Warmachine, I am sure. Alternatively: “GW sez: We’re going to kill a character!” *character dies* “Ha ha, turns out he’s immortal! Buy his new model!”
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 19, 2019 14:48:16 GMT
Eh, whatever. I mean, read the text accompanying the theme force in War Room. (Mildly paraphrasing) “This is the army Magnus assembled in 609 AR and used during the Second Cygnaran Civil War”. That is about as locked into a particular point-in-time as it gets! Apparently you don't read what you don't want to experience, because I referenced that twice now. And I'm saying that with an update to the Theme, the fluff would be updated, too. It's not like PP hasn't done that before. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp? And Warhammer just doesn’t care. I vaguely recall a situation in which one Space Marine chapter got a new book that detailed how much they hate psykers and refuse to associate with them, and the codex contained, you guessed it, new psyker models for them! Of course I freely admit I might have the specifics wrong. Warhammer only vaguely exists in any orbit that intersects with mine, and that was second-hand “Warhammer players griping about stuff” that I overheard while enjoying a game of Warmachine, I am sure. Alternatively: “GW sez: We’re going to kill a character!” *character dies* “Ha ha, turns out he’s immortal! Buy his new model!” So, on one hand you're saying we should keep something stuck in the past, but on the other hand you mock a company for keeping its entire line stuck in the past. Make up your mind as to which is the problematic point, please. Keep in mind, I brought up GW as a point of what Privateer Press does NOT do. It really should just be Cygnar as Mercenaries. It would be what Magnus does with a black budget. Unlike LR, it should have access to Cygnar solos and warjacks. Maybe leave out the Stormknight elements. I more or less agree. My points were to basically put in to place those units which could be "disappeared" by his Cygnaran allies for operations not wholly approved or even known by Cygnaran command. The Storm units and gun mages (besides, we could always bring in some Thorns in their place) would probably be left out. Certain "newer" Trencher units might also be excluded as well for the same reason.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 19, 2019 23:13:31 GMT
So, I guess most of this has been said before, but these are the options that make the most sense to me.
- Make Stannis and artillery requisition options - Change second benefit to something good and give boomhowlers native ambush (dunno what yet) - Add Boomhowler2 and a slew of solos that fix some of the themes glaring problems - Add non-chaarcter trencher solos and weapon crews - Add ability to take 2 non-character cygnaran jacks
Maybe also add pirates but not all of them, power monkeys should remain talion exclusive methinks
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 20, 2019 3:28:04 GMT
- Make Stannis and artillery requisition options If we keep the Steelheads, how does this make it any different than Soldiers of Fortune with a couple different rules? Now, if we are swapping out the Steelhead artillery for Trencher artillery, that might be a consideration. Maybe also add pirates but not all of them, power monkeys should remain talion exclusive methinks I can see that. Broadsides is in there, and will have is crew to fall back on. Of course, if we have Arcanists and Power Monkey (I see what you did there), that would be way too strong.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 20, 2019 8:24:19 GMT
- Make Stannis and artillery requisition options If we keep the Steelheads, how does this make it any different than Soldiers of Fortune with a couple different rules? Now, if we are swapping out the Steelhead artillery for Trencher artillery, that might be a consideration. Sof would still have bulldoze on heavy cav, free alexia2, Rocinante and a better solo selection. Even with Stannis and artilelry as free option, running the steelhead boat is better in SoF. Recursion, Bulldoze and broader caster selection clearly tip the scales in that themes favour, so i see no reason to needlesly restict the free options in kingmakers. The main feature for kingmakers would be the cygnar options and the different theme benefits, which should be more than enough to differentiate it.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Nov 20, 2019 14:31:35 GMT
Thats an interesting thought; lets look at this from a slightly different angle for a second.
Kingmakers is heavily associated with Magnus, but he is not the only caster in the theme. Macbain, Domiano, and Bart are also expected to be able to make interesting lists in this theme as well; i think it would be an interesting diversion to see if they are at least viable with the recommended changes.
Macbain: would seem to like the inclusion of trenchers an a limited assortment of cygnar jacks. Trencher commandos would seem to fit well with countermeasure and his feat, while a centurion with fail-safe and energiser and jackhammer would seem quite good. Would this now become Macbain's preferred theme over Resistance?
Bart: Batten down the hatches; broadside; and hot shot all seem to work much better with cygnar jacks then in mercenaries. From my understanding Bart is in a rough spot right now; would 2 cygnar jacks in this theme be enough to turn him around as a caster? Is there anything we could do with the theme to support Bart in his current form without piling buffs on other casters?
Damiano: Seems to be the sore spot in this theme, and the most demanding of caution with how we propose to change it with him still present. - Paymaster NEEDS Stealheads to function which means removing them entirely seems counterproductive. A requisition option of "1 trencher or stealhead light artillery unit" would keep him a valid target for paymaster in the theme. - Sure foot: Trenchers would seem to love this; Def 15 no knockdown tough; or 19 with dig in. Normally goes on halberdiers but seems very good here as well. - Deadeye: Any trencher units also love this. - Death march: trenchers are not good candidates, but haberdiers are if we decide to keep stealheads present in a limmited way.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 20, 2019 19:03:49 GMT
Thats an interesting thought; lets look at this from a slightly different angle for a second. Kingmakers is heavily associated with Magnus, but he is not the only caster in the theme. Macbain, Domiano, and Bart are also expected to be able to make interesting lists in this theme as well; i think it would be an interesting diversion to see if they are at least viable with the recommended changes. Macbain: would seem to like the inclusion of trenchers an a limited assortment of cygnar jacks. Trencher commandos would seem to fit well with countermeasure and his feat, while a centurion with fail-safe and energiser and jackhammer would seem quite good. Would this now become Macbain's preferred theme over Resistance? Bart: Batten down the hatches; broadside; and hot shot all seem to work much better with cygnar jacks then in mercenaries. From my understanding Bart is in a rough spot right now; would 2 cygnar jacks in this theme be enough to turn him around as a caster? Is there anything we could do with the theme to support Bart in his current form without piling buffs on other casters? Damiano: Seems to be the sore spot in this theme, and the most demanding of caution with how we propose to change it with him still present. - Paymaster NEEDS Stealheads to function which means removing them entirely seems counterproductive. A requisition option of "1 trencher or stealhead light artillery unit" would keep him a valid target for paymaster in the theme. - Sure foot: Trenchers would seem to love this; Def 15 no knockdown tough; or 19 with dig in. Normally goes on halberdiers but seems very good here as well. - Deadeye: Any trencher units also love this. - Death march: trenchers are not good candidates, but haberdiers are if we decide to keep stealheads present in a limmited way. Well I'll be honest with you, I was spitballing the changes based on what made sense to be, not on how it would improve the casters in it. Anyway, maybe we can figure something out. You are defiently right that Damiano likes this theme a lot. He is the best caster for it, and the theme benefits to most from his kit. The unique combiantion of trenchers, that take his buffs much more kindly, and steelheads that work with paymaster, makes it much better for him than SoF or Irregs, even though you can make good lists in either of those themes. Personally I think MacBain will be the most difficult work with. The only reason right now that MacBain has any sort of relevancy is due to how his feat interacts with archons, and the fact that he just happens to run the colossal well that synergises greatly with said archons. So, seeing as we defiently wont get archons in Kingmakers i dont see how we cna make it appealing to him in nay way, shape, or form. Bart might be just a few teaks away from being good here, seeing as it has Rangers, which benefit him greatly. He mainly wants magic weapons, threat extention, sylys and empower bots. Kingmakers already has the latter and the rest can be solved by opening up the solo selection a bit, which is what the theme desperatly needs anyway. Access to Aiyana, harlowe, macnaile and, well, sylys, would do wonders for him I belive, especially when combined with access to Hunters, Chargers and Grenadiers.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 22, 2019 5:49:34 GMT
While it would be refreshing to have Themes and Warcasters set up to support each other, they seem more concerned about fluff connections with Mercenary Themes than any appreciable access (Mercs are the only faction where no single Theme allows all of their Warcasters/Warlocks). Still, I'm not saying we dismiss that idea, either.
As an interesting side note, someone on Facebook suggested including some Skorne units as well. No doubt access to them was obtained before Morghoul and he had their... discussion, and was never rescinded. What would you think about adding Bloodrunners and Nihilators to the list?
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Post by marxlives on Nov 22, 2019 17:31:40 GMT
All down for more trencher and sword knight stuff in addition to what we have now.
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Post by streetpizza on Nov 25, 2019 17:50:03 GMT
Actually I'm all in on what Charistoph said. Move the theme force forward in time and make it a cygnaran theme for cygnar players since magnus is now in the army alongside stryker. It would be a perfect way to bring back Mercnar. Good idea Char lets pitch it to the devs!
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Post by mydnight on Nov 26, 2019 10:52:04 GMT
It would be a perfect way to bring back Mercnar. Only if they bring back 4+ tough no knockdown boomies and Aiyana + Holt with MA 8 and friendly kiss.
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