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Post by cplmustard on Jun 27, 2019 22:40:15 GMT
How about this as an Iona counter (assuming she doesn't get nerfed):
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes
[Doomshaper 1] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls [+29] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Wipe surefoot off, apply fortune and fell caller to fennblades (which actually outthreat tharn) and let them go wild. Beefy battlegroup keeps pacmanning from getting out of control. I'd like to figure out a way to get warders in here for the LotF but I'm not quite sure how, maybe drop a heavy or the axer?
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Post by deviantcad on Jun 28, 2019 1:48:04 GMT
Those are some pretty good reasons I might have to try the HH out. Two large bases is always a little hard for me to maneuver two large bases, but I guess you can keep itnprety easily behind the raiders.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 28, 2019 8:39:45 GMT
How about this as an Iona counter (assuming she doesn't get nerfed): Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Doomshaper 1] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls [+29] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Wipe surefoot off, apply fortune and fell caller to fennblades (which actually outthreat tharn) and let them go wild. Beefy battlegroup keeps pacmanning from getting out of control. I'd like to figure out a way to get warders in here for the LotF but I'm not quite sure how, maybe drop a heavy or the axer? If you specifically want to target Tharn, why include Champions? They get really beaten up by Ravagers who out threaten them, dont really care about their DEF, and who punch hard enough to make sanguine bond a really questionable option. I think Long Riders are way more appropriate, though it requires some re-thinking of the list. Champions are basically why trolls are having a rough time right now. They are good, BUT they get countered by a lot of the same things as Tharn and PT do AND they also lose spectacularly to Tharn and PT. When the meta is back to playing heavies the champions will shine, but this is not their time i think.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Jun 28, 2019 11:16:15 GMT
Probably presuming the Fenns have already engaged and bogged down the Tharn so that the threat range is not as much an issue? Seems like a bit of a dangerous assumption given how trivially a single Tharn can mow down anything it wants, but I can see the logic.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Jun 28, 2019 14:13:06 GMT
I don'T think this piece of information was posted yet: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g-p5po-MkEAt roughly 38 min Hungerford is hinting towards that Kriel Company is finally getting the stupid "ranged Warbeast" part lifted! I kind of was waiting for this to happen since the Theme was released and especially since Sons of the Tempest changed. Do you think the Theme will benefit much? I havent used the KC Units a lot but they feel kind of underwhelming. At least the Theme might be used for double Battle engine.
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Post by cplmustard on Jun 28, 2019 17:58:41 GMT
How about this as an Iona counter (assuming she doesn't get nerfed): Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Doomshaper 1] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls [+29] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Wipe surefoot off, apply fortune and fell caller to fennblades (which actually outthreat tharn) and let them go wild. Beefy battlegroup keeps pacmanning from getting out of control. I'd like to figure out a way to get warders in here for the LotF but I'm not quite sure how, maybe drop a heavy or the axer? If you specifically want to target Tharn, why include Champions? They get really beaten up by Ravagers who out threaten them, dont really care about their DEF, and who punch hard enough to make sanguine bond a really questionable option. I think Long Riders are way more appropriate, though it requires some re-thinking of the list. Champions are basically why trolls are having a rough time right now. They are good, BUT they get countered by a lot of the same things as Tharn and PT do AND they also lose spectacularly to Tharn and PT. When the meta is back to playing heavies the champions will shine, but this is not their time i think. Personally I think the decline of champs is a little oversold, they do just fine into primal terrors provided you screen them properly and layer your trolls well, although I'll admit most of my experience with the matchup is using madrak1 so def 14 might not be enough. Tharn is a problem but I was building this list with the idea that if I had to drop this into bones I'd have the arm cracking to get through say baldur2, that being said long riders might be a good idea anyways (I'll admit, I don't own any long riders so they didn't come to mind) because the beasts could be enough arm cracking as it is. I guess something like this might work, not sure how much I like it without a third heavy though Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Doomshaper 1] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls [+29] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [0(5)] Trollkin Long Riders (max) [20] Trollkin Warders (min) [10] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
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Post by mydnight on Jun 28, 2019 22:49:13 GMT
I don'T think this piece of information was posted yet: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g-p5po-MkEAt roughly 38 min Hungerford is hinting towards that Kriel Company is finally getting the stupid "ranged Warbeast" part lifted! I kind of was waiting for this to happen since the Theme was released and especially since Sons of the Tempest changed. Do you think the Theme will benefit much? I havent used the KC Units a lot but they feel kind of underwhelming. At least the Theme might be used for double Battle engine. If this is true Kriel will at least be better than PoD You can fill Kriel with beasts, war wagons, HHH and some solos.
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Post by dickovdk on Jun 29, 2019 8:03:16 GMT
Dont take this as rant or anything but please look at all the list you have presented. They are all just one solo (+5 points) of lists we already have been making more or less, or at least have been able to make. Mostly that means with all the changes we get -> an extra fell caller hero? I honest do not see thats a big difference from what we have been doing. Trolls are with Cygnar below the curve and with these changes - nothing will change that.
Warders at 10point which have been talked abit about on Facebook is an issue going forward. I use them because of shield guard (against circle sh*t) and because they pushed my list @60 point, effectively making the 5 points but with theme changes coming up I cannot for the life of me find a reason not to use Valkyries for that purpose instead and gain 2 points.
Horthol will be availble since he goes from 13 to 8 point effectively. This is nice because in Storm the LR will be useable with PS14 (12 just isnt good enough) but that will make our 2 strongest themes a bit better while Kriel&PoD will just fall more behind.
Champions, I still use them all the time not because Tharns (or Chosen) arent ripping them apart but because they are our only hard hitting unit in Band. Others being PS11 (warders) & PS12 (Fenns+LR) and when often facing arm20+ then Champions simply need to be around.
So to say theme changes is a major change, I frankly cannot see that, its just minor tweaks to our currently somewhat viable lists. Also asked some Skorne and circle ppls what they would change to their list. All kind of went: "Ehhh I dont know honestly, guess not really anything".
Having said that I am looking forward to seeing the changes anyways because I am one of those people who have had a hard time accepting the theme limitations in MK3, loosing them up - I am all for it.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 29, 2019 20:33:04 GMT
I think that many games look different if you look at them and say "but what if i had Valka standing right there?" An extra solo is a big deal imo. One more guy who can score a flag, not to mention that out support actually does work. Having two extra WM attacks, or a RAT 6 spray from a fell caller can really help imo.
Trolls will most likely stay below the curve, but this widens our options while not really improving the top lists out there. I think it benefits casters who are not played in every faction and the more tools you have in your toolbox the bigger chance that you have the RIGHT tool.
I too am looking forward to another troll CID to fix KC for example, but getting access to all types of beasts, and not being forced to spam 60 points of units that only kill low DEF low ARM infantry could really unlock that theme. Possibly enough to get Grim 2 on the table and that guy has potential against Tharn, Immortals and Primal Terrors. It could really open up the field just with these small tweaks.
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Post by Kevin on Jun 29, 2019 20:52:17 GMT
KC is supposed to be able to take every kind of warbeast - spoilers from L&L.
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Post by dickovdk on Jun 29, 2019 21:11:14 GMT
I think that many games look different if you look at them and say "but what if i had Valka standing right there?" An extra solo is a big deal imo. One more guy who can score a flag, not to mention that out support actually does work. Having two extra WM attacks, or a RAT 6 spray from a fell caller can really help imo. why I get what you are saying I still cant see it changes the lists very much. Yes you got 5 points (+solo) but so do everyone else, so status quo. Its just add to the number of models on the table while not really fixing anything in the game. Just basically sells more models (or pull one more out the cabinet ) Trolls will most likely stay below the curve, but this widens our options while not really improving the top lists out there. I think it benefits casters who are not played in every faction and the more tools you have in your toolbox the bigger chance that you have the RIGHT tool. This do not widen anything to be frank models are still split in Strong and not so strong models. So you basically take the same you did before anyways. Northkin models + CID changed models - rest is ... well not gonna see the light of day. I too am looking forward to another troll CID to fix KC for example, but getting access to all types of beasts, and not being forced to spam 60 points of units that only kill low DEF low ARM infantry could really unlock that theme. Possibly enough to get Grim 2 on the table and that guy has potential against Tharn, Immortals and Primal Terrors. It could really open up the field just with these small tweaks. This is exactly my point. Without correcting the issues with WM/H nothing change till the next theme get boosted. I do believe some small changes will happen (as Kriel getting access to Mauler basically) but without changing the bonuses Storm and Band is just better. I know I sound pessimistic but its mostly because I do not see these changes as a solution to what I feel the problem is WM/H is. But lets see in August
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jun 29, 2019 23:03:37 GMT
A new way to conceptualize an army build is a potential fix for certain TB problems (improved model diversity in some Themes would be welcome), but fundamental changes to strength or roles of certain units/solos/Warlocks/Beasts are needed to address the current nastiness in SR builds (Circle/Skorne, YMetaMV!)
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Post by deviantcad on Jun 30, 2019 0:52:39 GMT
I'm almost wondering if KC will get dropped. The biggest bonus is going first and that's not even guaranteed. It might make BoH to open, but if you added the models in KC to BoH and changed the bonus to melee and ranged I don't think losing KC would be a great loss.
As for not being a big change I think A: we need to see how the benefits change for all of the themes and B: the final rules requisition points. There is nothing stopping say Lord of the feast costing 2 points.
As for list not changing much I think it will depend on the list. Some list had a pretty set 60-80 points depending on if free points were at 20 or 25 and if you could take beast. I think the core of most list will stay the same but I think we will start to see more flavors of the current list.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 30, 2019 23:08:51 GMT
dickovdkNot EVERY list will get another free solo, just the ones that currently only get 2 due to not playing enough infantry. Tharn, immortals, prinal terrors etc etc already always get their 3 free things. The current power lists will not become more powerful. What WILL become more powerful is the lists that are currently weak, cause they do not spam enough infantry. Those lists will now yave an easier time playing against the power lists. This doesnt buff the entire troll(or any other) faction but it opens up builds that were previosly inyeresting but did not have the raw power to succeed. Madrak 2 with a slightly larget BG for example. Madrak is actually a strong beast caster due to warpath, field marshall and feat. He wants infantry too to use blood fury and to have guys to die for him, and since fury 5 is an issue, but lists with 40-50 points of infantry together with a larger BG are now more interesting. Im just saying this opens up new ground to dig in, and there might be gold there for the clever player to find.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Jul 1, 2019 4:49:23 GMT
Those lists have only one solo difference, but how about something like this:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North
[Borka 2] Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Pyre Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Troll Whelps [4] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Just a quick throw, don't blame list too hard, but idea is to build list based on PoD but combine it to theme that really helps that caster and add some good units.
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