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Post by Azahul on Mar 19, 2019 0:17:30 GMT
Odds are they did. That's how CID works, typically. Start with something the crew know is too strong. Use the quantity of feedback to isolate where the issue is. Scale back until it hits an appropriate level. We're like two years into CID at this point and the methodology is pretty firmly established.
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Post by mydnight on Mar 19, 2019 1:41:15 GMT
PP Needs to figure out a way to get about 100 people engaged as Pre-CID play testers. People would do it for minimal compensation (1/2 off Crate subscription?) They have moved into throwing pasta on the wall. I can't believe the internal play testers didn't figure out summoning was back breaking. Chicken and egg. I don't think they're doing that well to pay people for playtesting. Also they are probably simultaneously playtesting a whole year of releases ahead of time, as well as new game systems. Anyone know how many staff members they have in total? Their dev team seems to be like 4-5 guys.
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Post by Cuckoo on Mar 25, 2019 15:40:09 GMT
Just a few random questions...
It's crazy surprising how short this CID is. 3 weeks feels extremely rushed. Does anyone know why they are giving it so much less than other CIDs?
Plus are we expecting any more infernals units etc or is PP intending on people having a second faction for that other theme?
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Post by Cuckoo on Mar 25, 2019 15:47:56 GMT
I guess infernals seem extremely limited at the moment and I don't want to have to buy models from another faction for a second theme. I'd rather there was enough variation in the basic infernals stuff.
Only 3 casters and one infernal theme is kind of off-putting
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Post by anderfreak on Mar 25, 2019 20:12:16 GMT
I guess infernals seem extremely limited at the moment and I don't want to have to buy models from another faction for a second theme. I'd rather there was enough variation in the basic infernals stuff. Only 3 casters and one infernal theme is kind of off-putting I agree, I'm hoping this is just wave 1 and Oblivion brings a wave 2. I really hope they don't try padding the roster with other factions warcasters... I feel like that's too big of a task to balance in 6 weeks or less effectively especially the way major CIDs have been rushed lately. I'm hoping they scale it back to just thamarite models or something. Fiona, ragman and Acosta seem like good fits, maybe give the tag to a few secret cultists and thamarites across some factions.
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Post by mydnight on Mar 25, 2019 20:47:00 GMT
I'm hoping they scale it back to just thamarite models or something. Fiona, ragman and Acosta seem like good fits, maybe give the tag to a few secret cultists and thamarites across some factions. Thamar herself is likely at war (if not the root cause of it) with the infernals, so this seems unlikely.
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Post by anderfreak on Mar 25, 2019 22:11:19 GMT
I'm hoping they scale it back to just thamarite models or something. Fiona, ragman and Acosta seem like good fits, maybe give the tag to a few secret cultists and thamarites across some factions. Thamar herself is likely at war (if not the root cause of it) with the infernals, so this seems unlikely. Yeah, you're probably right, I don't really know how thamar and the infernals relationship dynamic works.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 26, 2019 6:14:30 GMT
Yeah, you're probably right, I don't really know how thamar and the infernals relationship dynamic works. I believe the best information we've got on the subject is that during the Orgoth Invasion the twins (primarily Thamar, but Morrow apparently signed off on it) made a pact to give humanity magic in return for something like a third of mankind's souls, to be paid at some future date. The future date has come and gone and Thamar appears to have reneged on the deal, with the appearance of the Infernal debt collectors having been delayed by the Old Witch's Grymkin plan murdering a hefty chunk of Infernalists around Immoren. We don't have a super clear picture of the situation, but Thamar appears to be firmly in humanity's corner for this fight.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 27, 2019 14:22:50 GMT
Thamar appears to be firmly in humanity's corner for this fight. Thamar was always "in humanity's corner". The main point of divergence with the Twins is that Morrow put his faith in the community and what people can achieve as a group, whereas Thamar believed in absolute freedom and the realization of individual potential. If they were leaders of a modern-day grassroots movement, Morrow would be the well-dressed guy at the from of the crowd preaching about democratic ideals, social justice, and community values, while organizing peaceful marches on the capital. Thamar would be the punk-rock goddess roaring libertarian and anarchic slogans, training a revolutionary army in the basement of an abandoned house on Paper Street, and throwing bricks at the cops.
This is a pretty common divide you see crop up in politics and philosophy all the time. That's the thing with Morrow and Thamar. It's not "good" and "evil". There isn't a right answer. It's Morrow's idealism vs Thamar's pragmatism. It's Morrow's justice & equality vs Thamar's pure meritocracy. It's Morrow's socialism vs Thamar's free market, if you like. Both are capable of good and bad. A Morrowan society could be Camelot, the Shire, or it could be a police state. A Thamaran society could be a libertarian paradise, an artist colony, or a cannibalistic post-apocalypse. As deities they both want what is "good" for humanity, though. It's just that Morrow's idea of "good" is a little more above-board, while Thamar is, as she might say herself, "the one who's willing to face reality and make the hard decisions".
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Post by Azahul on Mar 27, 2019 15:35:29 GMT
While I didn't mean to imply that Thamar was ever not in humanity's corner, I do think her moniker of "the Dark Goddess" is earned. You really only need to cast an eye over her Scions to see why. The kind of activities she rewards straight up include obliterating three quarters of a city, sadism and serial killing, and the violation of others' immortal souls. That's going a bit beyond punk-rock libertarianism. Honestly, some of the Scions don't even appear to have been impressively powerful (if her ideal is personal power for power's sake) so much as just impressively vile. Worshipping Thamar doesn't automatically make you evil, of course, the Iron Kingdoms setting is a bit more nuanced than that, but this is a religion that effectively has a Patron Saint of the Depraved. A Thamarite society could be a libertarian paradise or an artist colony, sure, but in-setting they sure do tend to trend towards the cannibalistic post-apocalypse.
To be clear, I like Thamar a lot and how she's depicted in the Iron Kingdoms lore. She's a very interesting take on what is essentially the Satan trope. And Paradise Lost's Satan is a compelling figure too, for that matter. But, moral relativism aside, I also don't have any problem calling her explicit endorsement of utterly horrific actions evil. She may espouse a general philosophy and claim that those who choose to be evil in following it don't reflect on the philosophy itself, but when she deifies individuals for annihilating cities or using Necromancy (permanently destroying or ruining the souls of others) she is moving away from just espousing pure philosophy to rewarding very specific deeds.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Mar 27, 2019 16:03:17 GMT
Morrow is a Jedi, Thamar a Sith. The isn't code isn't evil, just incredibly egotistical, same as Thamar.
Of course, extreme egoism becomes a true danger for society and, also, can provoke violent actions when it encounters aggressive people.
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Post by overmind on Mar 27, 2019 17:33:24 GMT
I'm perfectly willing to use D&D terms here and call Morrow good and Thamar evil, but only in the sense that good is selflessness and evil is selfishness. Thamar espouses putting yourself above all others, and Morrow says to put others over yourself.
This however does lead to Thamar being anti-infernalist. Selling your soul for power is giving authority to someone else, it is selfish but it could be even more selfish. Why give someone power over you when you can take that power or give them power over someone else?
By the same token I usually view Menoth vs the Wurm as Law vs Chaos. It has some issues but works well for me.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 27, 2019 17:44:36 GMT
but in-setting they sure do tend to trend towards the cannibalistic post-apocalypse [etc] Yeah, fair enough. All good points. I had kinda forgotten what a bunch of weirdos her saints were written as.
Actually, given the tone Doug Seacat has taken toward Thamar in recent years - which is tentatively pro-Thamar, by the way; I suspect his idea of her character has taken on more depth and nuance in connection with developing the whole infernals-pact-thamar-elfsouls-whatever plotline - It would not surprise me at all if some of those characters had their edges softened when they get fleshed out again in the Oblivion materials. I don't recall them getting significant attention in the new RPG materials, so it's possible that PP's whole concept of Thamar has evolved out from underneath them.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 27, 2019 20:50:49 GMT
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand unsubscribe..
No last thoughts/updates/news from the CID the last 2 weeks? I assume it's closed now.
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Post by paradox on Mar 27, 2019 22:12:57 GMT
Infernals CID ended this Monday. We’ll know more on release, or possibly in the Oblivion CID.
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