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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 24, 2018 3:46:19 GMT
What would you guys think about the possibility of doing a CID for Kriel Company? What would you like to see for new models? Which current models should be considered for changes? How about specific changes to the theme itself? More generally, what do you think the problems are with KC if any?
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Post by mydnight on Oct 24, 2018 3:52:44 GMT
Pyg solo with veteran leader.
Also most of the models that can only be brought in Kriel company need a look at. SoTN models are the best models in KC, aside from maybe the war wagon.
Also, ranged beasts should count toward free points or gain some bonus like fury management or swift hunter.
Wishlisting:
Scouts: gain +1 rat and dual attack instead of assault (1" melee range will probably not happen)
Bushwackers: rat 5
Burrowers: rat 5, +4 range on burrow
Thumper: +2 range
Slag: Animus!!
Impaler: 9 points (don't care if they remove set defence/mat/arm for this)
Boomhowlers: 4+ tough back, or Spd 6
Highwaymen: UA that grants snipe minifeat
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Post by grabsnikk on Oct 24, 2018 6:00:45 GMT
What would you guys think about the possibility of doing a CID for Kriel Company? What would you like to see for new models? Which current models should be considered for changes? How about specific changes to the theme itself? More generally, what do you think the problems are with KC if any? I think the theme should be expanded to allow any type of warbeast and let them count towards free points. The limitation of no access to Rage outside of the MK is too much of a disadvantage when all of our ranged units do nothing to help with armour cracking. The other theme benefits are actually pretty decent. I think that one of the biggest problems with Troll ranged infantry is that it is usually low range, rat and pow (Bushwackers, Burrowers, Highwaymen, Scouts) outside of Sluggers which are pretty decent. This leads to units being way overcosted for what they can actually do. Also there are a couple of units which just seem to have no purpose and to all intents and purposes are utter garbage. Burrowers are useless due to losing Point Blank, MAT/RAT 4 and the current Burrow rules being flaming pile of shit. They need some serious buffs to make them worth considering in a list, give them their old rules back with an appropriate points value and I will play them. Scouts are another of those units that doesn't seem to have a purpose. They are supposed to be stealthy but prowl is a terrible rule when you now need to get models fully into concealment to benefit. Gang is also a terrible rule on a 6-man unit with medium bases and .5" melee range (WTF went wrong there?). Not sure what can really be done here as they have a lot of rules on their card but are still complete garbage.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 24, 2018 8:18:52 GMT
I'll start by saying that I do not want to see another unit. Kriel Company already has more units than any of our other themes and most of them are just plain bad. Unless it's Pyg Hang Gliders. I can make an exception for Ewok-inspired flying cavalry. :P
Second, I do think that the warbeast restriction needs to be lifted. If Cygnar can get that for gun mages, then surely we can as well. If it absolutely came down to it, I would literally rather be limited to warlocks with ranged weapons than warbeasts. In case there is some worry about Kolgrima with +1 to go first being a problem.
Someone floated the idea of allowing all beasts, but counting those with guns toward freebies, then increasing the amount required to 25. On second thought, I worry that such might give us not only "SOTN in KC" lists but "POD in KC" lists too. So I think that some other kind of benefit for the beasts might be better; something that helps them work with the units, like Black Penny. Regardless, there is supposed to be more emphasis on the units than the beasts, who should mainly be there for armor cracking.
Dozer & Smig should always be allowed, just on principle, and his animus does help the battle engines.
Other than that, I think the theme itself is fine.
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Post by beardmonk on Oct 24, 2018 9:06:03 GMT
TBH I think a good may to make the KC list viable is to allow it to take Kriel Warriors either as a inclusion as the list or "for every two ranged units in the army you can take a unit of Kriel Warriors".
Just some chaff/cannon fodder to give the army some breathing space
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 24, 2018 9:15:00 GMT
The standard for jack + infantry count for free point themes is 30 points/free model.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Oct 24, 2018 9:25:36 GMT
maybe another solution to the rage problem is to allow the pyre animus to change to "range 6, affects battlegroup models" insteadof self only.
And I agree that we need more solo's that affect other models/units (vetran leader X, minus enemy range 5 for ranged attacks etc)
Make the scorseror a solo again insteadof attachment, but keep his abilities
Update the chronicler's Charge of the trolls: +2 movement for model/unit while charging instead of a dmg buff.
Burrowers. I think a redesign is in order here. a increace in range of their gun to 6 or 8 inch and a increase in RAT should be nice I was thinking more like this: The unit is not deployed, but a marker is put down at the AD line. You can move the marker 3 inch per turn OR you can place a single burrower above ground within 6 inches of the marker. No more than 3 burrowrs may be above ground at any time. The burrowers can activate as normal. (you have 10 burrowers to begin with) Mini feat: Burrowers Rush: you may put zero-all burrowers above ground, they have +2 movement on the charge and gang for a turn
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 24, 2018 9:49:58 GMT
As for the models, I would really like to see at least one new solo, because there are not enough options for freebies. A Fell Caller who buffs ranged attacks or a veteran leader for pygs would be top choices.
Then again, if the weapon crews get Advance Deployment so they can actually attack before the bottom of 3 then they become viable.
Other changes to units:
Burrowers: I still think that the Burrowing rule should just be streamlined to work more like Flight. Or, more likely, make the burrow marker itself easier to use, with more room to place the models or something. The limitations of the slug gun make sense to me; I can see bringing back some ability to use them in melee, but there's only so much we could do without increasing their point cost.
Sons of Bragg: Why are these guys 11 points? Seriously. 9 points, done.
Sluggers: I love the Sluggers, but they never quite seem to make the cut. Maybe if I played the theme more often, or I didn't have such horrible luck with them when I did field them. This is the one where I would most like to see a UA. He would have "Tactics: Conserve Ammo" which changes their ROF from d3 to 2 and his mini-feat would give Dig In and Critical Brutal Damage.
Scouts: This might be the hardest thing to fix in the entire theme. They don't have any niche, but what could that be? They can't compete with the Lookouts at range. If we push them more toward melee then they overlap too much with the Raiders.
Boomhowler: Should simply be a Partisan for Trollbloods and either the old super tough or maybe -1 point cost. The only caveat there is to watch out for ranking officers like in Crucible Lard.
Dannon Blythe & Bull: The "Pistol" still vexes me, especially when trying to actually use Prey. I always thought that she should have a Hand Cannon instead.
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Post by mydnight on Oct 24, 2018 10:04:44 GMT
Straight up stealth may work for the scouts. Currently they are a small unit of pseudo raiders.
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Post by moridamn on Oct 24, 2018 10:33:57 GMT
Some UAs would be nice. A lot of the ranged units lack any, not counting the sorcerer. Giving some of these guys a CA with some good buffs would be a great start. I'd like to see a highwayman CA with a black penny as a mini feat and granted repo. A slugger CA with a Full Auto mini feat that changes their ROF to d3+1 that turn while aiming. A burrower CA that maybe gives point blank as a mini feat and increased burrower placement.
Something along those lines, in addition to some bluffs to the units themselves, since most of them feel overpriced for their Range, RAT, and POW.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 24, 2018 11:21:17 GMT
As for the beasts:
Dozer should always be playable in KC and look at that model! Those are "Big Meaty Fists!" And yeah, he is a character so MAT 7 or maybe even RAT 7 would be nice. Other than that, I think he's worth his current cost of 18. He does have ARM 19, Dual Attack, and Bulldoze. He synergizes very well with Gunny's kit but I can see him working with the Grims and Grissels, Jarl, and even Borka 1 and Madrak 3 if they are ever in Kriel Company.
Brawler: If we're lifting the restriction, can we get a point shaved off here while we're at it? It has been hard to get him into lists at 16 and I think that 15 would be fair.
Blitzer: Just needs to be cheaper. I considered as low as 12 points with Fury 3, but there has been some concern about whether that is spammable, at least with Gunny or Calandra. Spammable Bulldoze is just plain broken on Ossrum and two wrongs don't make a right. Still, I think that 14 points would be fine. That has worked well for the Earthborn, which has a similar level of shenanigans available to it.
Impaler: Badly needs to be cheaper. 9 points is fine. Sure, the battle box would no longer be exactly 0 points, but nobody cares about that.
Slag: Really just needs any usable animus. Even adding Erosion to the list of things granted by the current non-animus would be an improvement. Hell, let it target anything and simply add Immunity: Corrosion and Erosion on all weapons if you want the whole model to remain dependent on the meta. Though... in Mk2 their animi were similar, so why not simply copy the Pyre Troll's Flaming Fists but with corrosion instead of fire? It's also worth asking if Spiny Growth would really be any worse in Trollbloods than it is in Skorne. But really, even some fairly situational stuff like Counterblast would be better.
By trending standards, the kings all need to be cheaper, but I've taken some issue with that trend.
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Oct 24, 2018 15:06:19 GMT
Scouts Stealth, and 1" melee
Scattergunners Reduction in cost, give them cra + cma. Make these the cheap cannon fodder of the theme
Chronicler Let him in the 1 theme he seems to be the most needed.
Burrowers Gain Gun fighter, burrow marker gains distance deployment, and increased area in which the unit can surface from the marker
Weapon Crews Advance deployment
Theme Lift the warbeast restriction
Slag Animus change to be the same as pyre trolls
Impaler Increase mat to 6, reduce to 10 points
Pyre, Winter, Storm Increase mat to 6
Highwaymen + Braylen Replace pistols with hand cannons
Sons of Bragg Fervor affects attack and damage rolls again.
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Post by Phlushot on Oct 24, 2018 16:06:20 GMT
maybe another solution to the rage problem is to allow the pyre animus to change to "range 6, affects battlegroup models" insteadof self only. And I agree that we need more solo's that affect other models/units (vetran leader X, minus enemy range 5 for ranged attacks etc) Make the scorseror a solo again insteadof attachment, but keep his abilities Update the chronicler's Charge of the trolls: +2 movement for model/unit while charging instead of a dmg buff. Burrowers. I think a redesign is in order here. a increace in range of their gun to 6 or 8 inch and a increase in RAT should be nice I was thinking more like this: The unit is not deployed, but a marker is put down at the AD line. You can move the marker 3 inch per turn OR you can place a single burrower above ground within 6 inches of the marker. No more than 3 burrowrs may be above ground at any time. The burrowers can activate as normal. (you have 10 burrowers to begin with) Mini feat: Burrowers Rush: you may put zero-all burrowers above ground, they have +2 movement on the charge and gang for a turn Were you secretly in the car with us on the way back from the I5 tournament? We discussed exactly that change for the Pyre and how I think that would probably fix the Rage issue and go a long way to fixing KC. Really it would open up a lot of options in the faction in general I think, deciding between the ghetto Rage for 8 points vs the real thing for 15. Hell I'd accept it going back to cost 9 if it got that change. The other change that I do my best to mention every time this topic is started (so once a week give or take) is allow all beasts, change the free solo rule to include beasts with ranged weapons but raise the point requirement to 25 (or more if that's what is needed for balance). Now you get to decide if you want the extra free model or the Mauler (and/or other melee beasts). Really though now that I've thought about the Pyre change I'd prefer that, man what I wouldn't give to be able to skip the obligatory Mauler and spend that 7 points on things like Brawlers. I might even field a Blitzer... the possibilities!
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Oct 24, 2018 17:02:05 GMT
During the StoN cid pp said they had no intention of making the pyre trolls animus target warbeast, but they have gone back on their word before.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 24, 2018 17:13:10 GMT
1) remove the northkin crap from KC.
2) allow all beasts, including dozer (note that dozer sucks with every one except Gunnbjorn, but it is the principal that counts!)
3) KC have lots of unit, all of which are designed to kill low def low arm infantry, and neither of which can stand in melee. Differentiate them so they are meaningfully different.
4) add some mandatory solo or something that every one needs to buy so PP can make sone money off the tine investment in cid.
5) fix the blitzer, dozer, impaler, slag troll.
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