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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 19:17:55 GMT
I hear that our battle engine is worth taking already....But Im just not seeing it.
It's a VERY expensive Model, that doesn't hit very hard in ranged or melee. It does have maneuverability going for it, but pillow fisted maneuverability on a huge base seems like a waste to me.
I don't think that just upping some boxes would make me take it.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Apr 14, 2017 19:24:08 GMT
You can slam a model then shoot it in the face while it's knocked down.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Apr 14, 2017 19:27:56 GMT
It already has a fair number of boxes, is repairable, cannot be knocked down or stationary, blocks LOS excellently, can melee and shoot, can slam stuff, puts down semi reliable terrain, has pathfinder and if you do it's impacts right, can actually hit a number of targets at once. How many more boxes are the engines getting anyway?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 19:28:04 GMT
You can slam a model then shoot it in the face while it's knocked down. So why not for those Points just get a Warjack to kill something as opposed to spending 18 points to lightly graze something? It already has a fair number of boxes, is repairable, cannot be knocked down or stationary, blocks LOS excellently, can melee and shoot, can slam stuff, puts down semi reliable terrain, has pathfinder and if you do it's impacts right, can actually hit a number of targets at once. How many more boxes are the engines getting anyway? That's excellent survivability, but that's also allot of doing nothing. And I wouldn't say Rat 5 is "Reliable" terrain setters.
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 14, 2017 19:32:42 GMT
This has been gone over a few times, but I'll summarize briefly 1. trample/shoot This brings it's effective range to 23 inches.. longer than any range we have short of victor. 2. 2 pow 16 guns, even without buffs, this is one of the best guns we have, it's even rat 5 not 4. I use it on casters that do not buff it sometimes, but any buff at all, snp, harm, FFE, turn this thing into a powerhouse. Think of it at base like buying two berserker punches on something from 23 inches away. I like it best when I can shoot something I know I'm going to hit (stationary) and maybe a harm buff, then its like getting hit by ruin twice. SNP also makes it hurt like a jack. This is really hard to overstate the power of. You're doing jack damage at range. 3. repo 3 .. generally you're not going to lose it unless you chose to. There are exceptions, but you usually don't have to trade it. 4. If you decide to trade it you'll get a turn of possibly impact slam pow 14's, charge boosted pow 14 (slamming into something else), and then the three gunshots at presumably knocked down targets. It's gonna do work. 5. That rough terrain is game winning sometimes.
Put it on the table using all those things, and then tell me how you don't see it as being good.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 14, 2017 19:33:16 GMT
I don't really have any way to elaborate on what growl said. I cam tell you I love playing one or two in a list, they're powerful models that are also fun to run. I'd suggest proxying if you can, to try them out.
Edit: Also, what voodoogk said. Really, just try the thing!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 19:44:26 GMT
I grossly disagree. I GROSSLY disagree on buying Two Berserker Punches for 18 Freakin points (even if they are far away punches). Any amount of Cover or defense utterly DESTROYS it as a Ranged Platform.
My issue with support is that if you're using support may as well compare similar things with support.
Like what are you hunting with it? Solos? Against Warjacks the avarage Ironclad the damage expected to be dealt is friggin 5 Boxes. If I allocate 1 focus to a Destroyer it does about as much damage but even without that I can at least either increase accuracy or damage.
I'm just seeing so many disparate stuff lumped into one package and none of those things really synchronize.
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 14, 2017 19:47:11 GMT
I grossly disagree. I GROSSLY disagree on buying Two Berserker Punches for 18 Freakin points (even if they are far away punches). Any amount of Cover or defense utterly DESTROYS it as a Ranged Platform. My issue with support is that if you're using support may as well compare similar things with support. Like what are you hunting with it? Solos? Against Warjacks the avarage Ironclad the damage expected to be dealt is friggin 5 Boxes. If I allocate 1 focus to a Destroyer it does about as much damage but even without that I can at least either increase accuracy or damage. I'm just seeing so many disparate stuff lumped into one package and none of those things really synchronize. Honestly using wording like that is not going to inspire me to give you my wisdom. I killed a glacier king the other night with two of them and some outrider charges. Nuff said.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 14, 2017 19:51:18 GMT
Then don't drop the money. Proxy it. And I think you're overestimating how much cover or defense hurts it. It does have some powerful guns.
And yeah, they are far away punches. Like, from downtown. That also knockdown! And can be followed up with shots!
But hey, grossly disagree! That's totally fine. It does appear most of us who have used it grossly disagree with you, so that should tell you something.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 19:54:28 GMT
Honestly using wording like that is not going to inspire me to give you my wisdom. I killed a glacier king the other night with two of them and some outrider charges. Nuff said. Um...Alright? I mean statistically its actually possible to kill a glacier king with charging Kossites. By the point in time your bringing TWO gun carriages, that package already costs more then a Glacier King. And I mean with what caster did you kill it?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 19:56:25 GMT
It does appear most of us who have used it grossly disagree with you, so that should tell you something. I actually OWN the thing. I have USED it. And are you making an Argument Ad Populom here?
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 14, 2017 20:08:07 GMT
Not really! Just pointing out the old Krusty rule: 50.00 Frenchmen can't be wrong!
We've listed out why we like using it so much and how well it does for us. I've don't have much else for you!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 20:22:44 GMT
I'm trying to understand more akin to HOW it COULD be great really. And Great at being better then anything else. It doesn't hit hard (Statistically) it's not accurate. The only thing its got is speed and survivability (But not nearly as survivable as something that could benefit from cover or concealment). But I'm not seeing that as worth it for 18 Points.
People insist it's doing jack damage at a range....When it's not. Like literally its not.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 14, 2017 20:24:48 GMT
I am afraid I do not understand how it is not. If I put it up, say, against a destroyer. That's one, boostable, pow 14. The carriage has 2 pow 16 shots. Not boostable, but they put down rough terrain and it has a better rat. It seems comparable to me.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 14, 2017 20:47:05 GMT
I am afraid I do not understand how it is not. If I put it up, say, against a destroyer. That's one, boostable, pow 14. The carriage has 2 pow 16 shots. Not boostable, but they put down rough terrain and it has a better rat. It seems comparable to me. Because the raw damage is worse. Boosted Damage rolls almost always are better than multiple weaker attacks when it comes down to ranged damage. Against a Cygnarian Ironclad, a Damage Boosted destroyer and a Gun carriage hitting twice the damage output is nearly the same. But a Destroyer can also boost to hit a Warpwolf if need be (60% probability). And your paying less for a model that can also then proceed to actually kill things in melee.
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