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Post by paradox on May 17, 2017 15:00:19 GMT
Unlimited Doors with cleansers and sunbursts would be brokenly good. Trust me.
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Post by greytemplar on May 17, 2017 16:59:24 GMT
Pretty sure it wouldn't. but if it was, I would be ok with limiting Door's to basic melee attack.
And it's not like Cleansers are really good now. They're just average. And it would only be good if your opponent had a lot of infantry. Sunbursts can sort of damage heavies, but not cleansers.
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Post by paradox on May 17, 2017 17:22:46 GMT
Pretty sure it wouldn't. but if it was, I would be ok with limiting Door's to basic melee attack. And it's not like Cleansers are really good now. They're just average. And it would only be good if your opponent had a lot of infantry. Sunbursts can sort of damage heavies, but not cleansers. Based on my recent CID games, I definitely disagree. Have you tried it recently? They are surprisingly good. RE infantry, Ive seen an increase as more themes release. Plus juicey solos were always there. Lights take pow13 sprays hard, followed by fire. Even casters Ive found vulnerable, where a few boosted bounces or blasts or sprays eat camp, leaving them exposed to a fire roll. Alot of what you say is what I felt on paper. Actual play has shown me its not quite as we'd theoried.
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Post by Swampmist on May 17, 2017 17:26:20 GMT
So, it's specifically Sevvy1 that brings about the issue then? Or is he just the only caster you've played?
For reference, I tried the same thing with Harby (played into Rahn.) Rat5 (and some pretty shite dice rolls) made them vastly less effective.
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Post by greytemplar on May 17, 2017 17:44:23 GMT
But there is no way of boosting Door's attacks. Even with Sevy1 giving you +1/+1, I hardly see how it's even close to approaching overpowered.
And the only infantry I see outside of Protectorate are Sentinals. Not much infantry from other factions. Certainly nothing that lists are being built around. And not enough lights to make a pow13 spray useful at killing battlegroups.
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Post by paradox on May 17, 2017 17:48:42 GMT
So, it's specifically Sevvy1 that brings about the issue then? Or is he just the only caster you've played? For reference, I tried the same thing with Harby (played into Rahn.) Rat5 (and some pretty shite dice rolls) made them vastly less effective. He certainly helps, though I fail to see your point here. It's not like people were saying "well it's just Harbie then" much in MKII, right? If a list or combo is punishingly good, saying "well it's just X" is kinda dumb. Try it out out-of-faction. "well, it's just Una2 and scarfsfells." See? As to dice, well, that's dice. I'm definitely hot on cleansers and Doors right now though. If for no other reason than the fear it brings. They can't risk if I roll good.
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Post by paradox on May 17, 2017 17:52:08 GMT
But there is no way of boosting Door's attacks. Even with Sevy1 giving you +1/+1, I hardly see how it's even close to approaching overpowered. So what? needing 6s or even 7s to hit is perfectly acceptable for an all but free out of turn attack. A month or two ago, I would have agreed. That's been steadily shifting. I see a good deal of Sons or the Tempest and Storm Division in Cygnar now. Alot of WG spamming from Khador. More banes coming out in Dark Host, and more Ghost Fleet. As to POW13, it's chip damage. In my turn and in yours. Plus fire. You can discount that if you like. I've had opponents with that attitude to. They burned.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 17, 2017 17:59:40 GMT
But there is no way of boosting Door's attacks. Even with Sevy1 giving you +1/+1, I hardly see how it's even close to approaching overpowered. So what? needing 6s or even 7s to hit is perfectly acceptable for an all but free out of turn attack. A month or two ago, I would have agreed. That's been steadily shifting. I see a good deal of Sons or the Tempest and Storm Division in Cygnar now. Alot of WG spamming from Khador. More banes coming out in Dark Host, and more Ghost Fleet. As to POW13, it's chip damage. In my turn and in yours. Plus fire. You can discount that if you like. I've had opponents with that attitude to. They burned. Things are definitely shifting from all out Jack-machine towards more Infantry-machine. Wonder if the pendulum will swing way too far in one direction though.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 17, 2017 18:05:17 GMT
But there is no way of boosting Door's attacks. Even with Sevy1 giving you +1/+1, I hardly see how it's even close to approaching overpowered. Sevvy1 does make a huge difference in how Cleansers play. More likely to hit, attacks Vs multiple models, POW 13 and fire? It's not going to do much more than ping a heavy, but against a light, or infantry you'll do more than just a ping, and I see plenty enough of both to make it worthwhile. Doing it in my opponents turn? Yeah, I can see where Paradox is coming from.
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Post by macdaddy on May 17, 2017 18:13:22 GMT
Scrub_of_Menoth: I don't think it will shift too far factions are getting their jack and beast themes now and there is still plenty of infantry hate out there to balance things out. (though I for one would not mind a shift to more dudes as my two factions are protectorate and circle who have no issue killing lots of dudes )
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Post by paradox on May 17, 2017 18:31:11 GMT
Scrub_of_Menoth : I don't think it will shift too far factions are getting their jack and beast themes now and there is still plenty of infantry hate out there to balance things out. (though I for one would not mind a shift to more dudes as my two factions are protectorate and circle who have no issue killing lots of dudes ) While I doubt we'll see a meta dominated wholly by infantryspam, I do think there will be lists that surface that are heavy on dudez. We already see some. And SR 2017 seems to favor a more gunline approach too, so units of dudes that can shoot might become more common. Ie idrians or WGRC or WGI. These are not bad match-ups for cleansers. The assault, especially with mini-feat, followed by Doors shots, can be pretty powerful. Post-assault Doors moves especially are strong because you can really line up shots that catch alot of models. The ability to do this has a warping effect on opponent's play, causing them to commit less hard and hold back more.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 17, 2017 22:34:52 GMT
Just a quick heads up for those that don't follow CID. The rules haven't changed and this is the last week of the battle engine CID, so the final Vessel is likely to look a lot like it does now.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 18, 2017 11:49:28 GMT
Just a quick heads up for those that don't follow CID. The rules haven't changed and this is the last week of the battle engine CID, so the final Vessel is likely to look a lot like it does now. the general consensus for both players and PP after testing last week's changes was that it was fine: Stormstrider had the same thing going on. I think the current iteration is our new BE.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on May 18, 2017 13:24:51 GMT
I'm dandy with that. More worried about the Arcantrik Force Generator out of Ret. That sucker is scary.
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Post by macdaddy on May 18, 2017 15:05:21 GMT
I'm dandy with that. More worried about the Arcantrik Force Generator out of Ret. That sucker is scary. What ticks me off about that BE is it was actually fine but ret players whined about not being able to move AND shoot really high pow guns (that are extra die of damage now) while being all but invulnerable to ranged retaliation thanks to carapace. Oh and it went down a point... I swear that change just ticks me off. I'm gonna try to convince the ret player near me to take it and abuse the crap out of it tonight when we game (if I get to play him) But he also is convinced his jacks are over costed so.....don't know if he will help me prove my point.
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