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Post by chillychinaman on May 7, 2017 7:01:13 GMT
Honestly, jacks popped into my mind before heavy infantry when reading Bonds of Faith. Makes me want to pick up some Dervishes.
Secondly, how often did/does Doors make a meaningful contribution? I might be underestimating it, but I don't see how a single out-of-sequence advance and attack is as useful as AoE healing, AoE damage, or AoE upkeep removal.
Reload on the gun is nice and welcome addition though.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 7, 2017 8:11:42 GMT
yeah, I try not to argue with people about the VoJ because I haven't played one. However, the VoJ will not be on my purchasing list until they make it worth its points. Menoth has way too many great pieces it could use in place of it that I'd much rather use. A cmd range heal (something like psycho surgery) or enemy debuff removal would likely be a good start.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 7, 2017 8:28:39 GMT
Literally I have not seen a faction actually be happy with their BE other than Rhulic, Circle and Ret. I think that may be a problem for such tests. Unlike Grymkin or SR packet, faction models (like BEs) are most likely to be playtested by people who own them and the faction. So objectivity can go right out of the window and wishlisting starts instead of rational thinking of the health of the game as a whole. For example I think CiD testing of nerfs could never be successful, because people playing and testing an "endangered" faction would create scenarios and draw conclusions to prove their point ( "Nerfs not needed! What's more, buffs recommended!" )rather than testing changes objectively.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 7, 2017 17:33:15 GMT
eh, I'm pretty sure a big issue with testing nerfs is that you need to nerf and buff everything at the same time, correctly, in order for it to properly show. Not only that, but you also need everyone who is testing to be at a similar skill level, and lets be honest, if you don't need to get better because your faction is OP you never will get better; meaning the tests will never be accurate unless you have everyone play different factions as well as their own and mark who was playing who.
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Post by teawithdice on May 9, 2017 18:31:02 GMT
Played a game using the following list against Krueger2. Scenario was SR16 Take and Hold. No points scored during the 4 turns of the game. I won by assassination.
The Harbinger of Menoth - WJ: +24 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Devout - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Vigilant - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 6 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 5
Harbinger + Hierophant + VoJ Healing bubble make Martyrdom last all day long. Played the first few turns out as if I was going to attrition the whole game constantly threatening charge lanes with Knights and Rhoven & Co. Allegiants are MVP no question Just try to keep at least one in Martyrdom Range. Vilmon tagged along with the VoJ as an Arm 21 shield guard.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on May 10, 2017 2:34:06 GMT
New changes to the Vessel are all sorts of ridiculous. I already got production out of the BE before it hit CID. The most recently proposed DevTalk changes, though, are borderline ridiculous. If they stay, I can guarantee you will see this thing played.
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Post by Mydnight on May 16, 2017 5:28:48 GMT
The best part is you'll still have people complaining on the CID forums that is lacks power.
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Post by marijnh on May 16, 2017 6:50:45 GMT
in its current form, the VoJ is actually quite nice. 2 shots and the healing aura do a lot to make it valuable. And the addition of the Scrutator title in its model entry make it an entry into the Knights Exemplar theme, which is pretty cool.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on May 16, 2017 7:07:23 GMT
Will pretty much stated that the Vessel will not likely undergo any more changes. I hope that is true. I like where it is right now. It's a powerful, expensive piece that does quite a few things we can't easily replicate in our Warjack arsenal. My friends are dreading it. To that, I can only say: good. It's about time that the Protectorate gets rules and models that make opponents nervous. Eye of Truth was the start to that and I'm hoping that future CIDs will help us (and all factions, honestly) fill out rosters with compelling pieces whose power level accurately reflects their point cost.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 16, 2017 7:58:42 GMT
The worst that I can see happening to it is having to pay more life for a boost, but all in all, it's quite good as it is, maybe a little above the curve.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 16, 2017 11:50:50 GMT
Agreed. I don't see myself using outside of proxying, but that's only because I have no patience for storing and painting models that big. It's only true weakness is spd 4 now, which requires planning but still works if conquest has taught us anything.
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Post by dicebedamned on May 16, 2017 14:03:23 GMT
I'd be happy if it shipped as it stands now. I think it offers something unique for us, and it makes certain casters work, which only adds to Menoth's new thing (all our casters are playable).
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on May 16, 2017 16:06:08 GMT
It is exactly what I hoped it would be and iterates on its original theme well: a defensively-oriented self-sufficient platform with a few situational-yet-effective Miracles. It lacks the sheer volume of quality attacks that a battle engine like the Throne of Everblight can generate, but makes up for it by not needing to bury into enemy lines to get work done and the ability to pretty much boost on demand.
There is a strong argument for double Vessel lists in Creator's Might. Sevy1 and Kreoss1 are the obvious choices, but even 'casters like Durst give them something fun. I have two, so I may yet try this out.
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Post by greytemplar on May 16, 2017 16:23:57 GMT
I'm ok with it as it stands. I just think for a "support" battle engine, it doesn't quite do enough support. Hence why I think Doors should be unlimited.
At that point, it would be perfect. But it's serviceable as it stands.
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Post by gargs454 on May 16, 2017 18:21:37 GMT
I'm ok with it as it stands. I just think for a "support" battle engine, it doesn't quite do enough support. Hence why I think Doors should be unlimited. At that point, it would be perfect. But it's serviceable as it stands. Yeah, for better or worse, if they made Doors unlimited, they'd probably reduce the power of the gun (either by lowering damage itself, or taking away the reload. Not that I necessarily think it needs a reduction in power of the gun if Doors got better, just that I think that is the way that PP would go. i.e. its either really great at support, or it gets a pretty darn good gun. Not both. From reading the battle reports, it looks as though the biggest "problem" people have with the VoJ is when it is ignored by the opponent and as such, can pretty much shoot and boost and heal all day long. To which I say, if you take pretty much any combination of 18-20 points of an army and ignore it the entire game, then its going to look really powerful. I mean heck, imagine what Idrians could do if you managed to convince your opponent to never attack them. Their damage output would be incredible and people would be crying for nerfs. All in all, I really like where the Vessel is now. Sure it would be nice to see Doors get a bump up, but I think its very much playable without it.
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