Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 5, 2017 20:35:31 GMT
I don't know if that fixes bastions, but dang is that good. Bastions still tend to get one shotted so healing is of dubious use. See, you WOULD be right... but Harby if you're resigned to martyring them anyway, I fail to see what bastions accomplish that cinerators won't. Both sets need to hit CID at some point.
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Post by macdaddy on May 5, 2017 20:35:33 GMT
I don't know if that fixes bastions, but dang is that good. Bastions still tend to get one shotted so healing is of dubious use. Thats why martyrdom can really help them out well at least in theory. testament has potential as well by bringing back vengers/cinerators and healing them so they are harder to kill.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 5, 2017 20:56:56 GMT
I'll never purchase a unit of bastions until their damage transfer circle increases to at least 5 inches. I'd much rather go with the cinerators that already act as better tanks.
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Post by greytemplar on May 5, 2017 21:06:40 GMT
Yeah, if you're running Harbinger you might as well go with Cinerators just for than extra pow and point of armor. They're more likely to survive in the first place, which means less martyrdoms. Vengeance also synergizes with martyrdom as well since they were still damaged. Plus the Vessel can heal harbinger too.
Bastions need to get a rework. Other stuff coming out of changing isn't going to help them.
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Post by Swampmist on May 5, 2017 21:11:13 GMT
The idea was to take martyrdoms when needed, then heal as much as 3d3 off of the bastions through vessels and bastion sennys
Saying this though, I'm considering testing a double cinny build tonight. God, if we only had the exemplar theme...
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Post by greytemplar on May 5, 2017 21:24:35 GMT
Well the issue is that with only 5 boxes, you're pretty much going to need to martyr every attack.
A charging steelhead Halberdier does 5 damage on average to a bastion when he charges, that's a martyrdom. And we all know steelheads are pretty awful in terms of damage output.
A cinerator will only take 4 damage on average, but that's still not great. And the 2nd steelhead who is following behind the first will finish the job. Heavy infantry should be able to take a hit from basic non-weapon master infantry, yet they cannot do that without the enemy getting some seriously cold dice.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 5, 2017 21:30:54 GMT
damage xfer to any bastion within 3 inches however you want. With their jack marshal each one of them can heal 1 point back. As far as a tarpit, they could do very well just by making the xfer work with "in formation" instead of a 3 inch radius.
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Post by WolfsSOL on May 6, 2017 2:11:43 GMT
The new Dev talk for the VoJ........ OMG, OMG, OMG!!!!!!!!!! Go look...... GO LOOK NOW
Reload add, plus cleansing has had its name changed and now heals friendly faction models for D3 damage
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Post by macdaddy on May 6, 2017 3:10:25 GMT
damage xfer to any bastion within 3 inches however you want. With their jack marshal each one of them can heal 1 point back. As far as a tarpit, they could do very well just by making the xfer work with "in formation" instead of a 3 inch radius. Yeah between transfer martyrdom, Beinf Def 15 from charges with awe and all the healing you could make a pretty durable midline on Bastions (they still need wall of steel or something Arm 16 is poop)
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 6, 2017 3:23:37 GMT
arm 16 is the baseline for medium based tarpit units. Skorne's Cetarii have shield wall order, but they are also arm 16. If you were going to compare survivability, the Bastions are actually higher though, due to the xfer and healing capabilities. The Cetarii gain steady and cleave instead... seriously, it's like they are trying to make them into offensive units when they are meant to fight in the trenches x.x
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Post by macdaddy on May 6, 2017 12:29:10 GMT
arm 16 is the baseline for medium based tarpit units. Skorne's Celtarii have shield wall order, but they are also arm 16. If you were going to compare survivability, the Bastions are actually higher though, due to the xfer and healing capabilities. The Celtarii gain steady and cleave instead... seriously, it's like they are trying to make them into offensive units when they are meant to fight in the trenches x.x And I'm sure you see how much people use Celtrati Same thing with posse out of theme. They need something to compensate for the lack of survivability. Arm 16 base sure but at least give them unyielding or Wall of steel to be Arm 18 at some point. People are already crying for nerf on the vessel lol go to the forums and bury thier voices with the sound of faithful menite praises!
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Post by greytemplar on May 6, 2017 15:08:07 GMT
Keltarii are pretty bad defensively. But at least unlike Bastions they can occasionally get missed without any help. Bastions are not worth trying to def stack to where they'll get missed reliably. And both tend to get one shotted.
Damage transferring was worth it when you had 40 boxes to go around and no range limitation. But the 3" range plus losing 15 boxes killed its usefulness. You're going to take 5+ damage most of the time now, which means you are better off letting the bastion die, and let it go to martyrdom/tough. At which point you would in-fact be better off with Cinerators.
If Sanguine Bond doesn't actually have any useful situations, there is no reason to run Bastions. They just need a complete redesign. No amount of external patching is going to fix them.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 6, 2017 20:02:17 GMT
Grey, wrong units. Cetrati, Cataphract cetrati x.x; not Praetorian Keltarii
Edit: also, if the range was still formation, the transfer would be enough. The point is to spread the damage around to every unit, then let their jack marshal heal ALL of them instead of just 1. They then become a 16 arm, 25 box model that requires 21 boxes of damage before you can properly kill them. Use additional calculations and that means it'd require 36 damage to kill 1 bastian, base, while they get healed 5 boxes next turn if you flop. Attempting to kill them with several hits would still require going through the original 16 before going through whatever is left of the 21. Since their use is more of an engagement, first line sacrifice that can last for a few rounds, this survivability aspect would be enough, even without shield wall.
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xernal
Demo Gamer
Check yourself before you wrack yourself
Posts: 16
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Post by xernal on May 7, 2017 4:12:02 GMT
i just wish they'd trade set defence for defensive strike or wall of steel/unyielding (wall of steel makes more sense with sanguine bond imo).
Defensive strike plus doors of judgement with ToM would be pretty fun. Hit a guy, maybe kill. Die. Kill another guy. Get Rez'd. defensive strike again.
Assuming they dont just shoot you from across the board with guns...
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 7, 2017 6:19:12 GMT
the point of a tarpit unit like them is to be the target of guns and the first charge of their heaviest hitting units. The reason they fail, miserably, at this is because 1 heavy can box them all in 1 turn. That's not a tarpit, that's a cake walk. With your medium sized infantry gone, the huge gap that's left makes your important units they were shielding child's play to kill. Fixing this issue will fix a lot of Cygnar's dominance as once cygnar is engaged they become cake.
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