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Post by tesoe on Jun 21, 2018 16:56:08 GMT
I'm currious what people think of the Toro in mercs. It's obviously competeing with the Nomad a bit. Do you think it's worth the couple extra points?
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Post by gobber on Jun 21, 2018 18:04:06 GMT
Absolutely yes with ashlynn for the admonition/countercharge shenanigans. Outside of that I'm still unsure.
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Post by fallenexile on Jun 21, 2018 18:16:25 GMT
Absolutely yes with ashlynn for the admonition/countercharge shenanigans. Outside of that I'm still unsure. Okay, I'm sure this is a dumb question, but how do those two rules interact? Does that allow the Toro to "sidestep" 3" in order to get the countercharge off? Or am I missing something better?
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Post by gobber on Jun 21, 2018 19:10:04 GMT
They trigger at the same time, and you choose the order in which to resolve them. So anything that tries to engage you gets countercharged, you can sometimes pull off nonlinear charges, or you can countercharge then dance back off the same trigger. Holding off on using them both at the same time is also useful (ie just moving forward to threaten countercharge); your opponent doesn't know what they'll get. Works very well when placed behind trencher cloudwalls, or when buffed by Eilish's puppet strings. privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?257368-Admonition-and-counterchargeAsh also like them because the difference between def10 and 11 is pretty significant with her feat (same case can be made for fiona)
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Jun 22, 2018 4:51:08 GMT
u can take with magnus2 because it dont much matter what he takes
u can take with macbain for failsafe to be arm 22 all teh way down
u can take with magnus1 for deff ward or iron agression if u want to be silly..
u can take 1 with constants blaze and max out her wjp with gallant if u feel like slumming it
u can take with bart to be arm 23 but it wont do nothin
u can take with fiona for good feat turn but she kinda bad
u cannot take with shae cuz das dumb
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 22, 2018 5:21:06 GMT
They trigger at the same time, and you choose the order in which to resolve them. So anything that tries to engage you gets countercharged, you can sometimes pull off nonlinear charges, or you can countercharge then dance back off the same trigger. I believe that Counter-charge does not trigger while engaged, so if they engage the Toro it would only be able to Admonition away. If they advance to within 6" without engaging it, then I guess it could Counter-charge then Admonition away.
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Post by gobber on Jun 22, 2018 6:57:42 GMT
They trigger at the same time, and you choose the order in which to resolve them. So anything that tries to engage you gets countercharged, you can sometimes pull off nonlinear charges, or you can countercharge then dance back off the same trigger. I believe that Counter-charge does not trigger while engaged, so if they engage the Toro it would only be able to Admonition away. If they advance to within 6" without engaging it, then I guess it could Counter-charge then Admonition away. That rules thread indicates otherwise? "2) You may Admonition and then counter charge. You can choose the order in which you resolve your effects, and you recheck for each effect's conditions when you resolve it."
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 22, 2018 7:12:02 GMT
I believe that Counter-charge does not trigger while engaged, so if they engage the Toro it would only be able to Admonition away. If they advance to within 6" without engaging it, then I guess it could Counter-charge then Admonition away. That rules thread indicates otherwise? "2) You may Admonition and then counter charge. You can choose the order in which you resolve your effects, and you recheck for each effect's conditions when you resolve it." I don't know about "rechecking" trigger conditions, my understanding is that when multiple effects trigger simultaneously you can choose which order to resolve them in. But if a mofel moves up to engage you Counter-charge does not trigger, only Admonition; that's it, there's nothing to re-check because only one effect triggered and was resolved. Maybe if a model moves within 6" but doesn't engage you it would trigger Admonition and Counter-charge, then if you Admonition into a position where an enemy model is engaging you then you need to re-check the conditions for Counter-charge and realise you can't counter-charge now because you're engaged?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 22, 2018 8:00:12 GMT
I don't know about "rechecking" trigger conditions, my understanding is that when multiple effects trigger simultaneously you can choose which order to resolve them in. But if a mofel moves up to engage you Counter-charge does not trigger, only Admonition; that's it, there's nothing to re-check because only one effect triggered and was resolved. Maybe if a model moves within 6" but doesn't engage you it would trigger Admonition and Counter-charge, then if you Admonition into a position where an enemy model is engaging you then you need to re-check the conditions for Counter-charge and realise you can't counter-charge now because you're engaged? This is incorrect, Counter Charge triggers, it just can't resolve while engaged. To put it in Magic terms, both Counter Charge and Admonition go on the stack (does Magic still have a stack? Haven't played in a while), but you choose in which order. If Admonition is used first, to move out of melee, there is nothing stopping Counter Charge from resolving anymore. edit: Here's a thread on the rules forum that explicitly spells it out.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 22, 2018 8:08:55 GMT
I don't know about "rechecking" trigger conditions, my understanding is that when multiple effects trigger simultaneously you can choose which order to resolve them in. But if a mofel moves up to engage you Counter-charge does not trigger, only Admonition; that's it, there's nothing to re-check because only one effect triggered and was resolved. Maybe if a model moves within 6" but doesn't engage you it would trigger Admonition and Counter-charge, then if you Admonition into a position where an enemy model is engaging you then you need to re-check the conditions for Counter-charge and realise you can't counter-charge now because you're engaged? This is incorrect, Counter Charge triggers, it just can't resolve while engaged. To put it in Magic terms, both Counter Charge and Admonition go on the stack (does Magic still have a stack? Haven't played in a while), but you choose in which order. If Admonition is used first, to move out of melee, there is nothing stopping Counter Charge from resolving anymore. edit: Here's a thread on the rules forum that explicitly spells it out.
Sigh. That makes no sense to me, but whatever.
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Post by gobber on Jun 22, 2018 8:18:21 GMT
This is incorrect, Counter Charge triggers, it just can't resolve while engaged. To put it in Magic terms, both Counter Charge and Admonition go on the stack (does Magic still have a stack? Haven't played in a while), but you choose in which order. If Admonition is used first, to move out of melee, there is nothing stopping Counter Charge from resolving anymore. edit: Here's a thread on the rules forum that explicitly spells it out.
Sigh. That makes no sense to me, but whatever.
The trigger condition is the first sentence of countercharge (something moving within 6"), which is the same as admonition's. You only check for the conditions of the second sentence when initiating the countercharge.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 22, 2018 9:54:17 GMT
Yeah, I got it, it just doesn't make sense to me that you can trigger something that you can't resolve. But fine, if that's the way it gets played then whatever, let's just move on.
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Post by xc18 on Jun 25, 2018 9:16:12 GMT
Keep a marshalled Toro behind frontline infantry for example Steelhead in Irregular. If a brave soul comes in melee with the halberdiers, the Toro countercharges with Mat 8 pow 18+4D6,
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Post by borderprince on Jun 25, 2018 11:12:21 GMT
Keep a marshalled Toro behind frontline infantry for example Steelhead in Irregular. If a brave soul comes in melee with the halberdiers, the Toro countercharges with Mat 8 pow 18+4D6, Probably a better option once Steelheads have a solo with Empower (say, an Arcanist). Otherwise you're still capping the Toro's output except on the countercharge. But marshal bonuses + empower might make marshalling heavies worth it.
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Post by GrumpyBear on Jun 25, 2018 13:34:40 GMT
u can take with magnus2 because it dont much matter what he takes u can take with macbain for failsafe to be arm 22 all teh way down u can take with magnus1 for deff ward or iron agression if u want to be silly.. u can take 1 with constants blaze and max out her wjp with gallant if u feel like slumming it u can take with bart to be arm 23 but it wont do nothin u can take with fiona for good feat turn but she kinda bad u cannot take with shae cuz das dumb Counterpoint: U can take with Shae cuz he is not the dumbestest and he is good and awesome. Also he mak them go the fastestest of the merks. Also high marks for a Countercharging Marshalled Toro. Thats a pow 18 weaponmaster, holy potatoes! If You put some free charge solos in the army that would actually be a legitimately good model. Just the raw zone defense it would provide would be excellent. Put him on Rutger Shaw and now you've got a Shield Guard as well. I've felt for awhile Mercs are an Empower Solo away from unlocking several excellent Marshal models, but I didnt think how nasty the Toro synergies with this.
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