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Post by Charistoph on Dec 26, 2019 5:41:33 GMT
So you DON'T understand what I'm saying. Knock off the “you don’t understand” stuff. I do understand what you are saying, I just think you are making a false equivalence because if you look at the lifecycle of the product, the artists and sculptors got paid when it was first produced and sold. Whether you are doing so to unfairly demonize those who buy secondhand minis or sell unwanted miniatures that they have accumulated, or to justify buying and selling of recast, I’m not sure. As an aside, I gave a friend some PP models for Christmas — would that be as immoral and as bad for PP as buying recast, as the only difference between me selling them to him and me giving them away is a few bucks in my pocket versus his? I will knock off the "you don't understand" stuff when you actually demonstrate you actually understand what I am saying. I am not demonizing second hand sellers, but I am also not bringing up a false equivalency, either. I have demonstrated it, you have yet to counter it. You are assuming a demonization that I have not actually made, but just assume I am making one because of your perception on an act.
Your giving a gift is a false equivalency because it is only really dealing with one actual sale, you were not generating another sale, and you were not causing your friend to not purchase something retail, as just the one retail sale occurred. Your money was used instead of his, but you did not keep it. Understand now?
I don't know where you are coming from with the transfer tax angle. No one has brought up taxes to this point. PP doesn't pay taxes on sales you, yourself, make, any more than they pay the income taxes for your local store.
But my point is that third sentence. PP gets as much from a second-hand sale as from a recast. Nothing you have said has changed that very simple dynamic, and that is the only point I've been making. Trading used items does not increase the pool, but it doesn't give the original artists/producers any money, either. But if someone tries to get on their high horse and says second-hand is better because recasts don't give the artists money? That's disingenuous because the artist received just as much from the second-hand sale as from the recast.
The points are did PP have any gains by the model and is something other than PP can add the models pool. I said transfer tax because you said 'trade second hand gives nothing to the manufacturer.' Simply put, if they should do that, then it must be they have the rights to collect transfer tax from the government, which is nonsense. But did trading used items prohibited by the law? I don't think so. Maybe it is a national thing, because there is no "transfer tax" in the States, nor does one gain a tax from the government here. One has to pay taxes to the government, and is often on the business to collect taxes on sales, which is passed on to the customer. The other problem is, the models pools in the world. If PP made exactly a ten thousands of copy of PIP 31001, there is only a ten thousands of PIP 31001 models in the world. It must be. Then whatever you buy it from PP directly, retailers, used one by the other gamers, the total amount of the model never increases(it may decreases by the loss) unless PP actually make more of her. Also, after sell all of these, PP have paid for made a ten thousands of her already. Which does not address my point, and have I acknowledged at several points now. There is a difference between a discussion on origination or quantity of product and sales. My point was solely dedicated on the sales, not the origination or quantity of the product. Do you understand?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 26, 2019 5:58:27 GMT
As far as ripping off PP's IP, the Vassal module does that to almost the fullest extent possible. You can play any list you want for free, and never need to pay any money at all; not to PP, not to a second-hand seller, not to a recaster. Where's the outrage? If you feel strongly about the ethics of using Vassal, you are free to start a thread on the subject, and, if you are curious what PP thinks of Vassal, you are free to ask them (they have made their opinion on recasts known). I probably won’t participate because I don’t know enough about Vassal to have a strong opinion. The reason why people are talking about recasts and not Vassal on this thread is because it is a thread about recasts.
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Post by dogganmguest on Dec 26, 2019 11:35:08 GMT
The reason why people are talking about recasts and not Vassal on this thread is because it is a thread about recasts. Maybe it was about recasts to begin with. Now it's a thread about no-one reading what anyone else is saying, and generally missing the point by a large margin. The way all threads usually end up here, I guess.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 26, 2019 13:19:14 GMT
Just so people realize this - if any recast is found in customs they will destroy that stuff. So if you order your China Reacast stuff it might never make it to you. I am participating in few recasts group, that order stuff from china, europe and usa. and there were no cases when this happens.
Then the customs simply did not realize that they were fake. If they find fake nikey sneakers or fake watches those will be destroyed under the very same law that applies to those miniatures. You got lucky because tabletop miniatures are a niche product.
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Post by Havock on Dec 26, 2019 17:03:00 GMT
Vassal is a non-issue because it is not really detracting from purchases; it is mostly used by people who already have stuff to A- test new lists B- play against people half a continent away.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 26, 2019 17:30:05 GMT
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money. I buy a recast warjack -- some recaster got their money and PP didn't More into this point: A recaster buys the model once. PP gets the money once. They sell the recast 100 times and PP does not get 100 sales. It isn't a 1:1 ratio like people are making it out to be. While selling second hand also does not get PP more money, someone bought all of their models from PP or a supplier, which did give PP money. I could buy 11 Crusaders from a recaster, PP gets money once from the recaster and 0 times from me. Or I could buy 11 of them second hand, where PP got paid 11 times from someone else who bought the models and once from me.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 26, 2019 17:51:41 GMT
I buy a recast warjack -- some recaster got their money and PP didn't More into this point: A recaster buys the model once. PP gets the money once. They sell the recast 100 times and PP does not get 100 sales. It isn't a 1:1 ratio like people are making it out to be. While selling second hand also does not get PP more money, someone bought all of their models from PP or a supplier, which did give PP money. I could buy 11 Crusaders from a recaster, PP gets money once from the recaster and 0 times from me. Or I could buy 11 of them second hand, where PP got paid 11 times from someone else who bought the models and once from me. Or one Crusader gets sold second-hand 11 times, and is in the same situation.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 26, 2019 18:21:40 GMT
Second hand does not bring more models into the market. Recasting does, simple as that. It is incredibly cheap and embarrassing how people are trying to defend piracy. This is not a cheap hobby. Never was never will be. If you buy recast you will seriously hurt PP on the long run.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Dec 26, 2019 18:28:08 GMT
More into this point: A recaster buys the model once. PP gets the money once. They sell the recast 100 times and PP does not get 100 sales. It isn't a 1:1 ratio like people are making it out to be. While selling second hand also does not get PP more money, someone bought all of their models from PP or a supplier, which did give PP money. I could buy 11 Crusaders from a recaster, PP gets money once from the recaster and 0 times from me. Or I could buy 11 of them second hand, where PP got paid 11 times from someone else who bought the models and once from me. Or one Crusader gets sold second-hand 11 times, and is in the same situation. No, not at all. People who resell dont retain use of the crusader after it is sold. If PP sold 5 crusaders and each crusader was resold 5 times each, there are still only 5 crusaders in the market: the ones that pp originally sold. If a recaster buys 5 crusaders and recasts them 5 times each then there are 30 total out in the market, but pp only got paid for 5 of them. Yes, buying used is not helping PP right now but buying used means you are using a model whose cost at some point went PP. Buying from a recaster cuts from PP's profit because they get nothing beyond the original models the recaster bought to make the casts; in my example it is 25 lost sales.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 26, 2019 19:26:53 GMT
More into this point: A recaster buys the model once. PP gets the money once. Or one Crusader gets sold second-hand 11 times, and is in the same situation. Except then there's still that one crusader that PP already profited off of. Not 10 additional recast crusaders that PP did not see any income from.
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Post by Havock on Dec 26, 2019 22:25:59 GMT
Ah, but that is the difference between the recaster and the one buying. The same reason there is a difference between stealing and handling stolen goods, not that recasting is stealing -or at least, if it is it is stealing IP, which is different from stealing physical somethings-, but the relationship between recaster and customer is a rough analogy.
It's immoral and eventually self-defeating, but too many people still think that recasting/pirating shit is the equivalent of theft, which it isn't. That discussion has been going on for about 30 years now, which it wouldn't have if it was so clear cut. :v
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Post by shiza on Dec 26, 2019 22:51:56 GMT
so everyone ignoring that company can give away free stuff in promoting, using your words they steal too. Because they do not have any profit from this. Hey, are any economists here or this is regular "sofa analytics" thread?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Dec 26, 2019 22:57:10 GMT
Reading one page of this thread just made me feel dumber by far.
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Post by Havock on Dec 26, 2019 23:28:56 GMT
so everyone ignoring that company can give away free stuff in promoting, using your words they steal too. Because they do not have any profit from this. Hey, are any economists here or this is regular "sofa analytics" thread? Armchair.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 27, 2019 0:16:24 GMT
not that recasting is stealing -or at least, if it is it is stealing IP, which is different from stealing physical somethings- but too many people still think that recasting/pirating shit is the equivalent of theft, which it isn't. it's been about a decade since I passed my Bar, but in the US Federal law, recasting and distributing the counterfeit merchandise is Intellectual Property Theft, also known as Piracy. If you are to ignore the IPT for too long without pursuing avenues of correcting the IPT, usually to the point that the property becomes a household name, then it contests the copyright and you may lose the copyright. This is why Disney will demand a nursery in backwoods nowhere remove a Disney mural that they did not approve of, and why everyone calls a photocopier a Xerox, despite Xerox being one producer of photocopiers. Stealing really isn't a thing in most places, except colloquially, but some jurisdictions recognize a difference between theft and stealing, usually the difference is that stealing is taking a specific piece of property, while theft would be just the general taking of property, be it physical or not. In the US, it is illegal to knowingly purchase or import a counterfeit good and can result in civil or criminal penalties. There's a few different kinds of theft. Larceny is the one that you're currently hung up on, where it is theft of physical goods, and there's different degrees of larceny. There's also Identity Theft and Robbery. Pirating isn't equivalent to theft, it is actually, legally, factually, theft. Now I'm going to muddy the water a little. If the recast is done in China, the legality of it is lost to me, but importing it is a violation if IP rights. There are also things PP "owns" that would not hold up in court. Most of the faction symbols with real world elements, such as the Menofix and the Cygnar Swan are pretty open to be copied since you can't really copyright that sort of design, but you can copyright the design with the IP of the faction. A court would likely decide that I can freely print and sell the Menofix symbol but I couldn't call it a Menofix and I couldn't explicitly market it as such or make any connection to the Protectorate Faction.
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