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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 4:12:15 GMT
Umm, no.
Buying a recast army and buying a second-hand army made up of the exact same things results in the same amount of money going to the artists and producers from that purchaser. The only difference between them was an original purchase before the second-hand army became second-hand. It's a little bit better, over all, but the buyer of the second-hand army has literally given just as much money to the original artist as if they had bought it from a recaster.
Realistically, when I buy a box, I'm not paying PP unless I buy it directly from the store. If I buy at the LGS or Amazon, PP already has already received their money since the retailer pays to get their product delivered to their location for retail (aka resale).
Now, if that recaster goes and buys more PP product to scan or the second-hand seller goes and buys a different army in a "first-hand sale", the end result is still the same.
First, I'm pretty sure if you asked anyone who worked at PP "hey how do you feel about me buying a used Menoth army off my buddy," and "hey, how do you feel about me buying a Menoth army from a recaster," you will get vastly different answers. (if you google it, you can see PP's opinion on recasting in their own words, meanwhile I don't think I've ever seen them say "no buying and selling used armies"). Also, when you buy a box from the LGS or amazon or any legitimate online seller, you are encouraging that seller to continue to stock and order more PP product, not to mention supporting your LGS if you go that route. And that, in turn, encourages PP to produce more product -- both new releases and additional runs of existing models. When you buy a box from a recaster, you are encouraging that recaster to produce more knockoffs. It doesn't matter how they feel about it when the end result is exactly the same from a business standpoint. That's what you do not seem to understand. And if they can't see the similarity, that's not my fault.
But you can't seem to recognize that.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 23, 2019 4:25:11 GMT
First, I'm pretty sure if you asked anyone who worked at PP "hey how do you feel about me buying a used Menoth army off my buddy," and "hey, how do you feel about me buying a Menoth army from a recaster," you will get vastly different answers. (if you google it, you can see PP's opinion on recasting in their own words, meanwhile I don't think I've ever seen them say "no buying and selling used armies"). Also, when you buy a box from the LGS or amazon or any legitimate online seller, you are encouraging that seller to continue to stock and order more PP product, not to mention supporting your LGS if you go that route. And that, in turn, encourages PP to produce more product -- both new releases and additional runs of existing models. When you buy a box from a recaster, you are encouraging that recaster to produce more knockoffs. It doesn't matter how they feel about it when the end result is exactly the same from a business standpoint. That's what you do not seem to understand. And if they can't see the similarity, that's not my fault.
But you can't seem to recognize that.
Where is the similarity? Being a seller? That's all.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 5:20:28 GMT
It doesn't matter how they feel about it when the end result is exactly the same from a business standpoint. That's what you do not seem to understand. And if they can't see the similarity, that's not my fault.
But you can't seem to recognize that.
Where is the similarity? Being a seller? That's all. There is a difference between being a retailer and a reseller/recaster. A reseller and recaster prevents those initial sales that a retailer provides. Ever hear of a concept called "market glut"? If there are few buying NEW kits because of an excess of second-hand sales, then the business collapses. Heck, that's one of the reasons one of my LGS has stopped dedicating any significant space to Privateer Press product.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 23, 2019 5:37:54 GMT
Well, I asked for the similarity, not the difference I think.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 5:45:33 GMT
Well, I asked for the similarity, not the difference I think. But the similarity isn't the problem, the difference is the problem.
The similarity between a reseller and a retailer is that there was that initial sale in the first place, which doesn't happen with the recaster.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 23, 2019 5:54:46 GMT
Where is the similarity? Being a seller? That's all. There is a difference between being a retailer and a reseller/recaster. A reseller and recaster prevents those initial sales that a retailer provides. Ever hear of a concept called "market glut"? If there are few buying NEW kits because of an excess of second-hand sales, then the business collapses. Heck, that's one of the reasons one of my LGS has stopped dedicating any significant space to Privateer Press product. You know what else causes market glut? A bunch of knockoffs floating around in the market because people keep buying from recasters. At least when people buy legitimate secondhand minis, they are reducing this glut instead of increasing it by buying recasts. Just because a secondary market exists as people from time to time find they are in possession of miniatures they no longer want for whatever reason doesn’t make recasting or buying recasts okay.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 6:02:38 GMT
There is a difference between being a retailer and a reseller/recaster. A reseller and recaster prevents those initial sales that a retailer provides. Ever hear of a concept called "market glut"? If there are few buying NEW kits because of an excess of second-hand sales, then the business collapses. Heck, that's one of the reasons one of my LGS has stopped dedicating any significant space to Privateer Press product. You know what else causes market glut? A bunch of knockoffs floating around in the market because people keep buying from recasters. At least when people buy legitimate secondhand minis, they are reducing this glut instead of increasing it by buying recasts. Just because a secondary market exists as people from time to time find they are in possession of miniatures they no longer want for whatever reason doesn’t make recasting or buying recasts okay. No, second-hand sellers do not reduce market glut. They actually contribute to it. Maybe not as quickly as the recasters, but they still contribute to it.
And no, I was not saying making/buying recasts is okay, just saying that there is little difference between buying second-hand and buying recast in the end. Market glut continues to rise while the original artists aren't getting paid from it at all.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 23, 2019 6:12:13 GMT
You know what else causes market glut? A bunch of knockoffs floating around in the market because people keep buying from recasters. At least when people buy legitimate secondhand minis, they are reducing this glut instead of increasing it by buying recasts. Just because a secondary market exists as people from time to time find they are in possession of miniatures they no longer want for whatever reason doesn’t make recasting or buying recasts okay. No, second-hand sellers do not reduce market glut. They actually contribute to it. Maybe not as quickly as the recasters, but they still contribute to it.
And no, I was not saying making/buying recasts is okay, just saying that there is little difference between buying second-hand and buying recast in the end. Market glut continues to rise while the original artists aren't getting paid from it at all.
I have to agree that the difference doesn't matter too much at. Especially at the moment, if you look on eBay it's absolutely flooded with armies for pennies. And it's not like they're all recasts, almost all of it is metal and NiB models. It's kind of absurd that the shipping cost for a second hand army is higher than the price of the army itself - the market is completely tipped in the buyers' favor. It doesn't matter if you buy an entire secondhand army for 20$ or get it from mr Chan, PP is still not going to see a penny from the transaction. The only recasts that actively hurt PP right now are those of new models, and in that case I agree that buying them is immoral.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 23, 2019 11:20:03 GMT
I think they still gain from second hand stuff. You now have an army and you will buy this or that support model. If the person who sold the miniatures did not quit the hobby that money could go back to PP also. And finally there is still that argument: Second hand is legal and fair (Yes you can always sell things that you own - only video games lock that), recast is shady and illegal. Simple as that. Also Second hand is stuff they did produce at one point, recast is "newly" produced and leeches from the company.
If you buy second hand a reasonable price will be maybe around 50% off the original price, the stuff that sits around ususally expects a lot for that you have to clean the minis and might have trouble with damages and whatnot. I also checked ebay.com the armies that you can buy sit there at a few HUNDRED bucks. Its impossible that comes much cheaper than 50%. The shipping is cheaper on one bidding item. That item will go up. I do not understand that argument that everything on ebay is so cheap. If it was we you not have this discussion at all because you would simply buy everything from ebay. You can snitch a great deal here and there of course. But usually they do not sell what you want to buy. Pro tip: Just paint them nicely and they will be worthwile even when the game does not exist anymore (My warhammer fantasy Dwarves are still beloved and any non-wargamers favourite to look at). If I manage to paint them, I do not expect to sell my minis at any point! How is a recaster supposed to get things moldline free if the original product comes with mold lines? Do you trust that person to be careful enough removing them before recasting? Do you really expect a recast to be the same quality? And all that for saving a few bucks? "Warmachine is way too expensive": Ok just buy a playstation and maybe 4 games instead. See the re-sell value (going down by the minute, games are problematic to sell at all). That is easily all you need for a Warmachine srmy. And that army stays even when the severs for all your games go down. If you cannot afford to spend this on your hobby you should really not be doing wargaming at all (or most hobbies that exist, LOL). I am imagining any Wargamer I know, complaining about the prices and then spending insane amounts of mones on the hobby. Its always the same. Instead of just regulating what you buy and when you do, you try to cut things cheap and mass those minis. Thats childish and really backstabbing the company. Again: Have you assembeled and painted your armies yet? That is also part of this hobby... I mean how cheap do those Recasts come?! If miniaturemarket has another sale, you can easily get 30-60% off. The default thing you can get from the internet is 20%. If you live in the EU you can even shuffle around England or EU costs (There are huge differences for full metal stuff produces in GB). And while doing this you would still support the company. To close my rant: I actually go to my local store and order PP stuff there. They can order but they do not have it in stock. I simply do this to support my localy store, where I can still play games and meet people. Just turn to that argument around a bit. I have a budget that I spend on my Hobby. And if I buy there, then I simply get less minis. Less piles of stuff. And I really think: Do I absolutely need this? Or could this also wait? I still have a lot lying around here to be honest. But I do have 2 Armies painted up for the most part (Trolls and Cygnar) and I am slowly working my way around Circle and Khador. And for this is is absolutely worth it to support the company that makes a great game, great setting and story, great looking minis (I prefer the honest metal and Resin stuff instead of GW plastic with stupid detail that you can never get painted and breaks all the time and even Restic is fine once you painted and assempled the minis, just more work to do so). Buying recast cuts into all these aspects of the game. If you buy original product you support all of this, if you buy from somewhere else you don't.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 23, 2019 13:46:15 GMT
oh we legit talking "bootlegg" models based of molds made using the originally sold models.
yeah no i sorta assumed we were talking stuff like "here is kreoss. but he looks like in the video game" sorta deals. or custom pose amon ad raza.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 23, 2019 14:19:31 GMT
The only way to counter the second hand market glut is to increase demand for the game, unfortunately PP seem woefully unable to do so it seems
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 23, 2019 16:25:21 GMT
The only way to counter the second hand market glut is to increase demand for the game, unfortunately PP seem woefully unable to do so it seems well, the only way to do that is to make the product better, more well known or more accessible. It seems like PP kinda shat on that last aspect when they folded the PG program. do they actually advertise in any way? and the website's design still isn't exactly stellar, so that option's out too. In terms of quality, obviously you can't just magically make the sculpts look better, but I wonder if PP aren't losing out on a lot of costumers by continuing to produce mainly metal (and resin) minis which are harder to assemble (bad for newbies and casuals) and to convert compared to plastic. if you look at GW, their prices are still pretty out there, but the product is still easy enough to access that it keeps attracting new costumers, and obviously there's the snowball effect that people are going to buy what other people in their area are playing. even here, there's at least 15-20 GW players, but only about 4 of us who own even a single PP model. I'm a total outsider and still relatively new so I wouldn't know, but from what I've seen people say I almost get the impression WMH still hasn't fully recovered from the damage the MK3 launch caused?
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 17:01:22 GMT
I think they still gain from second hand stuff. You now have an army and you will buy this or that support model. If the person who sold the miniatures did not quit the hobby that money could go back to PP also. And finally there is still that argument: Second hand is legal and fair (Yes you can always sell things that you own - only video games lock that), recast is shady and illegal. Simple as that. Also Second hand is stuff they did produce at one point, recast is "newly" produced and leeches from the company. Legality can change, and does change when you go across international borders. You do realize that currently a Chinese recaster is not breaking the law by creating those recasts, don't you? That's because there is no copyright treaty to enforce against them. That's why GW hasn't sued them yet.
The "will buy more accessories" argument lies flat when you consider that the person who just bought a recast army may do the exact same thing.
And this is coming from a person who has bought almost everything from second-hand or clearance pricing.
well, the only way to do that is to make the product better, more well known or more accessible. It seems like PP kinda shat on that last aspect when they folded the PG program. do they actually advertise in any way? and the website's design still isn't exactly stellar, so that option's out too. In terms of quality, obviously you can't just magically make the sculpts look better, but I wonder if PP aren't losing out on a lot of costumers by continuing to produce mainly metal (and resin) minis which are harder to assemble (bad for newbies and casuals) and to convert compared to plastic. if you look at GW, their prices are still pretty out there, but the product is still easy enough to access that it keeps attracting new costumers, and obviously there's the snowball effect that people are going to buy what other people in their area are playing. even here, there's at least 15-20 GW players, but only about 4 of us who own even a single PP model. I'm a total outsider and still relatively new so I wouldn't know, but from what I've seen people say I almost get the impression WMH still hasn't fully recovered from the damage the MK3 launch caused? The models, themselves, are not the problem. Cost of them might be a problem (you get way more for your buck with GW kits of the same price, for example), but the biggest problems are the support materials, i.e. the rules, and the metas. So many of them are so toxicly competitive that it has driven people away, and they found better groups back in Warhammer or Star Wars.
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Post by shiza on Dec 24, 2019 15:53:14 GMT
Just so people realize this - if any recast is found in customs they will destroy that stuff. So if you order your China Reacast stuff it might never make it to you. I am participating in few recasts group, that order stuff from china, europe and usa. and there were no cases when this happens.
****
another opinion: recaster do not have full line of models. And when i spent $100 to buy a new army, i am forced to spend another $100 from pp to buy new models that recasters do not have at this moment.
there are rule do not play recast in club, so people forced to prime and paint models to play. painted miniatures attract more that bare/naked metal.
recasters forced to buy new stuff directly from pp to be on the wave.
as any other entertainment thing - most profit it brings on first sales. So, i believe, PP gets their profit from creating and producing new stuff exact when they first release models and get first wave of hype and buyers. The rest of sales are only a pleasure bonus.
Recast not full black or full white thing. It is gray, as any other thing in our world. It just exists.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Dec 25, 2019 1:15:07 GMT
Just so people realize this - if any recast is found in customs they will destroy that stuff. So if you order your China Reacast stuff it might never make it to you. I am participating in few recasts group, that order stuff from china, europe and usa. and there were no cases when this happens.
****
another opinion: recaster do not have full line of models. And when i spent $100 to buy a new army, i am forced to spend another $100 from pp to buy new models that recasters do not have at this moment.
there are rule do not play recast in club, so people forced to prime and paint models to play. painted miniatures attract more that bare/naked metal.
recasters forced to buy new stuff directly from pp to be on the wave.
as any other entertainment thing - most profit it brings on first sales. So, i believe, PP gets their profit from creating and producing new stuff exact when they first release models and get first wave of hype and buyers. The rest of sales are only a pleasure bonus.
Recast not full black or full white thing. It is gray, as any other thing in our world. It just exists.
Theft is not grey. That’s like saying it’s ok to steal bread from the corner store, because you buy apples there. That’s not your choice to make. You should pay the price the creator of the property sets, or not get it at all.
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