shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 25, 2019 4:01:57 GMT
curious about the morality of this. are the same people that are anti recasts/pirated/bootlegs opposed to it because of its PP, or because it's wrong? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just curious how many people would be against recasts if this were foreword we were discussing vs privateer press.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 25, 2019 4:56:13 GMT
curious about the morality of this. are the same people that are anti recasts/pirated/bootlegs opposed to it because of its PP, or because it's wrong? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just curious how many people would be against recasts if this were foreword we were discussing vs privateer press. Yes, I am opposed to recasting anyone's stuff, because it's wrong. And because I've seen it really hurt artists in boutique miniature companies. While the big boys might be big enough to take a hit better than these boutique miniature companies that are just one or two artists working away in their garages, recasts are still bad for the hobby because they hurt the people who make the stuff we love, which means they are less able to make more stuff we will love. PP, GW, Reaper, Scale75, Bad Squiddo, FeR Miniatures, RP Models (to name some of the miniature companies I bought from this year), doesn't matter. As I mentioned upthread, Scale75 has done a few things over the past few years that have pissed me off, but I don't support recasting their stuff. If they produce something that I like, I'll take that into account when I make my decision whether to buy it or not, but I won't go to a recaster and then try to justify it by saying "well, they had it coming because they wronged me somehow"
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 25, 2019 5:05:47 GMT
Just because it is wrong, of course. Like or hate the company is not related with it at all. Although I hate PP now but it doesn't give any indulgence to commit or encourage the crime against it - because it is the crime and they are not evil enough to deserve it.
If you hate PP then you may stop to buy the new stuffs. It is legal, and you have the right to do if you want. But copy it is an another story and just make you a criminal.
Perhaps, the evil within me says 'what a suck!', and I can't prove that I never do that even once through my lifetime. But, although we can wrong sometimes, but it doesn't change what is right and what is wrong.
And, it is no more than a kidding if a miniature game community forum approves illegal products too.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 25, 2019 5:13:30 GMT
You know what else causes market glut? A bunch of knockoffs floating around in the market because people keep buying from recasters. At least when people buy legitimate secondhand minis, they are reducing this glut instead of increasing it by buying recasts. Just because a secondary market exists as people from time to time find they are in possession of miniatures they no longer want for whatever reason doesn’t make recasting or buying recasts okay. No, second-hand sellers do not reduce market glut. They actually contribute to it. Maybe not as quickly as the recasters, but they still contribute to it.
And no, I was not saying making/buying recasts is okay, just saying that there is little difference between buying second-hand and buying recast in the end. Market glut continues to rise while the original artists aren't getting paid from it at all.
Secondhand sellers exist because there will always be people who have stuff they no longer want and want to get rid of. And there is nothing wrong with selling your army if you aren't playing with it anymore, or buying your friend's army if she stops playing. I don't think any miniatures company has said that they don't want people buying and selling used product and that if you buy their stuff you should be stuck with it forever. One big difference is, if 10 people buy secondhand, that is 10 armies that have found a good home and are no longer on the secondary market -- and if enough people do that, the supply of secondhand models will start to dry up and supply and demand will balance out in such a way that is less of a buyer's market. If those 10 people buy recast, then those 10 armies remain on the secondary market, increasing supply and driving down the price. And then if some of those people get tired of their armies and want to switch to the new hotness, those recast armies end up on the secondary market as well. That is not to mention that those who buy secondhand will be likely to purchase additional new models to fill out their army, while those who buy from recasters are likely to just buy more recast. While people who buy secondhand aren't directly supporting PP with that purchase, at least they aren't actively hurting the hobby by buying knockoffs and encouraging the production of knockoff miniatures.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 25, 2019 6:34:13 GMT
No, second-hand sellers do not reduce market glut. They actually contribute to it. Maybe not as quickly as the recasters, but they still contribute to it.
And no, I was not saying making/buying recasts is okay, just saying that there is little difference between buying second-hand and buying recast in the end. Market glut continues to rise while the original artists aren't getting paid from it at all.
Secondhand sellers exist because there will always be people who have stuff they no longer want and want to get rid of. And there is nothing wrong with selling your army if you aren't playing with it anymore, or buying your friend's army if she stops playing. I don't think any miniatures company has said that they don't want people buying and selling used product and that if you buy their stuff you should be stuck with it forever. One big difference is, if 10 people buy secondhand, that is 10 armies that have found a good home and are no longer on the secondary market -- and if enough people do that, the supply of secondhand models will start to dry up and supply and demand will balance out in such a way that is less of a buyer's market. If those 10 people buy recast, then those 10 armies remain on the secondary market, increasing supply and driving down the price. And then if some of those people get tired of their armies and want to switch to the new hotness, those recast armies end up on the secondary market as well. That is not to mention that those who buy secondhand will be likely to purchase additional new models to fill out their army, while those who buy from recasters are likely to just buy more recast. While people who buy secondhand aren't directly supporting PP with that purchase, at least they aren't actively hurting the hobby by buying knockoffs and encouraging the production of knockoff miniatures. Then you either are refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying, or simply do not understand it.
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money.
There is zero guarantee that the money gained in a second-hand sale will go to buying another army. Heck, when I sold my last big batch of 40K models, some of it went to play bills, some of it went to purchase clearance Privateer Press stock, and some of it paid for dinner for me and my wife on a date. None of my money has gone to Games Workshop since, except for base and wash paint.
Locally, a lot of people got rid of their WMH armies when Mk 3 started. There used to be many armies available at the local Gamer Garage Sales/Mercenary Markets as people switched around their armies, but that has dried up, to only two or 3 sellers (and I was one of them, and likely won't be selling more any time soon), because they simply do not sell in our market at any appreciable rate. Heck, the only reason I was able to sell some is because the person wanted to use the Skorne models for an RPG he was running, and it was not an IKRPG.
The only valid point you have provided is that buying recast encourages more recast. To that, I would agree. It technically does not hurt the hobby, just the originating company, though. It can take a lot of time and work to set up some of the recast methods, and some of the materials the recasters offer allow for easier modification, i.e. plastic or resin versus white metal. With the advent of the mini-crate, it may even allow for someone who could not get it originally, would then be able to get one later on when no one is selling theirs. This is not to excuse the practice, but to recognize where the damage actually lies.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 25, 2019 7:11:46 GMT
Secondhand sellers exist because there will always be people who have stuff they no longer want and want to get rid of. And there is nothing wrong with selling your army if you aren't playing with it anymore, or buying your friend's army if she stops playing. I don't think any miniatures company has said that they don't want people buying and selling used product and that if you buy their stuff you should be stuck with it forever. One big difference is, if 10 people buy secondhand, that is 10 armies that have found a good home and are no longer on the secondary market -- and if enough people do that, the supply of secondhand models will start to dry up and supply and demand will balance out in such a way that is less of a buyer's market. If those 10 people buy recast, then those 10 armies remain on the secondary market, increasing supply and driving down the price. And then if some of those people get tired of their armies and want to switch to the new hotness, those recast armies end up on the secondary market as well. That is not to mention that those who buy secondhand will be likely to purchase additional new models to fill out their army, while those who buy from recasters are likely to just buy more recast. While people who buy secondhand aren't directly supporting PP with that purchase, at least they aren't actively hurting the hobby by buying knockoffs and encouraging the production of knockoff miniatures. Then you either are refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying, or simply do not understand it.
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money. I understand what you are saying, I simply don't agree that buying and selling secondhand is the same as recasting or buying recasts. Evidently you agree as well, because you said that you don't think recasts are okay but also admitted that you have sold some of your armies. You need to look at the whole life cycle of the product to see the difference. If someone buys secondhand, the designers at least got their money when the first sale was made. If the product changes hands a couple times afterwards during its life cycle, it's not harming them. If I buy a model, decide later that I don't want it, and sell it to a friend (or give it to him for Christmas), PP still got their share from the initial purchase. Whereas, if someone buys recast, the artists and designers didn't get their money and that only encourages more recast. I buy a warjack and keep it -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and sell it to my friend -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and give it away for Christmas -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a recast warjack -- some recaster got their money and PP didn't I agree that there is a buyer's market for used models right now. If there is an issue of PP's bottom line being significantly hurt by market glut in the secondary market, recasters only make that problem worse by introducing more supply into the market in the form of knockoffs that represent stolen art, sculpts and IP.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 25, 2019 7:55:16 GMT
Secondhand sellers exist because there will always be people who have stuff they no longer want and want to get rid of. And there is nothing wrong with selling your army if you aren't playing with it anymore, or buying your friend's army if she stops playing. I don't think any miniatures company has said that they don't want people buying and selling used product and that if you buy their stuff you should be stuck with it forever. One big difference is, if 10 people buy secondhand, that is 10 armies that have found a good home and are no longer on the secondary market -- and if enough people do that, the supply of secondhand models will start to dry up and supply and demand will balance out in such a way that is less of a buyer's market. If those 10 people buy recast, then those 10 armies remain on the secondary market, increasing supply and driving down the price. And then if some of those people get tired of their armies and want to switch to the new hotness, those recast armies end up on the secondary market as well. That is not to mention that those who buy secondhand will be likely to purchase additional new models to fill out their army, while those who buy from recasters are likely to just buy more recast. While people who buy secondhand aren't directly supporting PP with that purchase, at least they aren't actively hurting the hobby by buying knockoffs and encouraging the production of knockoff miniatures. Then you either are refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying, or simply do not understand it.
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money.
There is zero guarantee that the money gained in a second-hand sale will go to buying another army. Heck, when I sold my last big batch of 40K models, some of it went to play bills, some of it went to purchase clearance Privateer Press stock, and some of it paid for dinner for me and my wife on a date. None of my money has gone to Games Workshop since, except for base and wash paint.
Locally, a lot of people got rid of their WMH armies when Mk 3 started. There used to be many armies available at the local Gamer Garage Sales/Mercenary Markets as people switched around their armies, but that has dried up, to only two or 3 sellers (and I was one of them, and likely won't be selling more any time soon), because they simply do not sell in our market at any appreciable rate. Heck, the only reason I was able to sell some is because the person wanted to use the Skorne models for an RPG he was running, and it was not an IKRPG.
The only valid point you have provided is that buying recast encourages more recast. To that, I would agree. It technically does not hurt the hobby, just the originating company, though. It can take a lot of time and work to set up some of the recast methods, and some of the materials the recasters offer allow for easier modification, i.e. plastic or resin versus white metal. With the advent of the mini-crate, it may even allow for someone who could not get it originally, would then be able to get one later on when no one is selling theirs. This is not to excuse the practice, but to recognize where the damage actually lies.
Not really. The company already earn the money by sold it. The trade of second-hand model itself does not give anything to the manufacturer, but you don't realize WHERE the model comes from. PP is not the government. They don't have any rights to force us the transfer tax. Actually, it is natural that they cannot. As long as there is no illegal copy of PP games models, the whole pool of models only comes from the factory of PP. Trading used items does not increase the pool at all.
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on Dec 25, 2019 8:04:50 GMT
dis is relly boring
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 25, 2019 16:39:15 GMT
Then you either are refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying, or simply do not understand it.
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money. I understand what you are saying, I simply don't agree that buying and selling secondhand is the same as recasting or buying recasts. Evidently you agree as well, because you said that you don't think recasts are okay but also admitted that you have sold some of your armies. You need to look at the whole life cycle of the product to see the difference. If someone buys secondhand, the designers at least got their money when the first sale was made. If the product changes hands a couple times afterwards during its life cycle, it's not harming them. If I buy a model, decide later that I don't want it, and sell it to a friend (or give it to him for Christmas), PP still got their share from the initial purchase. Whereas, if someone buys recast, the artists and designers didn't get their money and that only encourages more recast. I buy a warjack and keep it -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and sell it to my friend -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and give it away for Christmas -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a recast warjack -- some recaster got their money and PP didn't I agree that there is a buyer's market for used models right now. If there is an issue of PP's bottom line being significantly hurt by market glut in the secondary market, recasters only make that problem worse by introducing more supply into the market in the form of knockoffs that represent stolen art, sculpts and IP. So you DON'T understand what I'm saying.
You buy a Warjack and sell it. PP has gotten money from you, but not from the person you sold it to. The person you sold it to does not get a brand new model, so PP does not get any money from them buying the Warjack. At this point, they may as well have bought a recast for all the money PP received from it. Zero money = Zero money, after all.
You apparently did not have notice that I did acknowledge the original sale for the original product versus the recast product, nor have been justifying the recast market (aside from actual hobbying capacity due to material differences). And yes, recast makes the buyer's market worse, but a buyer's market disincentivizes the recast market at the same time.
Sadly, stolen IP is not always illegal. China has made a mint from stealing IP and building off brands as a result. That's actually part of the Trade War that Trump recognized and has been trying to bring to public attention.
Then you either are refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying, or simply do not understand it.
Purchasing an army recast? Designers do not get the money.
Purchasing an army second-hand? Designers do not get the money.
There is zero guarantee that the money gained in a second-hand sale will go to buying another army. Heck, when I sold my last big batch of 40K models, some of it went to play bills, some of it went to purchase clearance Privateer Press stock, and some of it paid for dinner for me and my wife on a date. None of my money has gone to Games Workshop since, except for base and wash paint.
Locally, a lot of people got rid of their WMH armies when Mk 3 started. There used to be many armies available at the local Gamer Garage Sales/Mercenary Markets as people switched around their armies, but that has dried up, to only two or 3 sellers (and I was one of them, and likely won't be selling more any time soon), because they simply do not sell in our market at any appreciable rate. Heck, the only reason I was able to sell some is because the person wanted to use the Skorne models for an RPG he was running, and it was not an IKRPG.
The only valid point you have provided is that buying recast encourages more recast. To that, I would agree. It technically does not hurt the hobby, just the originating company, though. It can take a lot of time and work to set up some of the recast methods, and some of the materials the recasters offer allow for easier modification, i.e. plastic or resin versus white metal. With the advent of the mini-crate, it may even allow for someone who could not get it originally, would then be able to get one later on when no one is selling theirs. This is not to excuse the practice, but to recognize where the damage actually lies.
Not really. The company already earn the money by sold it. The trade of second-hand model itself does not give anything to the manufacturer, but you don't realize WHERE the model comes from. PP is not the government. They don't have any rights to force us the transfer tax. Actually, it is natural that they cannot. As long as there is no illegal copy of PP games models, the whole pool of models only comes from the factory of PP. Trading used items does not increase the pool at all. I don't know where you are coming from with the transfer tax angle. No one has brought up taxes to this point. PP doesn't pay taxes on sales you, yourself, make, any more than they pay the income taxes for your local store.
But my point is that third sentence. PP gets as much from a second-hand sale as from a recast. Nothing you have said has changed that very simple dynamic, and that is the only point I've been making. Trading used items does not increase the pool, but it doesn't give the original artists/producers any money, either.
But if someone tries to get on their high horse and says second-hand is better because recasts don't give the artists money? That's disingenuous because the artist received just as much from the second-hand sale as from the recast.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 25, 2019 18:49:14 GMT
I understand what you are saying, I simply don't agree that buying and selling secondhand is the same as recasting or buying recasts. Evidently you agree as well, because you said that you don't think recasts are okay but also admitted that you have sold some of your armies. You need to look at the whole life cycle of the product to see the difference. If someone buys secondhand, the designers at least got their money when the first sale was made. If the product changes hands a couple times afterwards during its life cycle, it's not harming them. If I buy a model, decide later that I don't want it, and sell it to a friend (or give it to him for Christmas), PP still got their share from the initial purchase. Whereas, if someone buys recast, the artists and designers didn't get their money and that only encourages more recast. I buy a warjack and keep it -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and sell it to my friend -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a warjack and give it away for Christmas -- PP got their money when I bought it I buy a recast warjack -- some recaster got their money and PP didn't I agree that there is a buyer's market for used models right now. If there is an issue of PP's bottom line being significantly hurt by market glut in the secondary market, recasters only make that problem worse by introducing more supply into the market in the form of knockoffs that represent stolen art, sculpts and IP. So you DON'T understand what I'm saying.
Knock off the “you don’t understand” stuff. I do understand what you are saying, I just think you are making a false equivalence because if you look at the lifecycle of the product, the artists and sculptors got paid when it was first produced and sold. Whether you are doing so to unfairly demonize those who buy secondhand minis or sell unwanted miniatures that they have accumulated, or to justify buying and selling of recast, I’m not sure. As an aside, I gave a friend some PP models for Christmas — would that be as immoral and as bad for PP as buying recast, as the only difference between me selling them to him and me giving them away is a few bucks in my pocket versus his?
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 25, 2019 19:11:49 GMT
Well, I find this interesting. maybe go hit a children's zoo or something to keep you occupied?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Dec 25, 2019 21:30:00 GMT
As a game developer, I would prefer that you steal over buying a bootleg.
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Post by Havock on Dec 25, 2019 22:41:51 GMT
IP "crimes" (ie. counterfeiting/downloading) are more closer to trespassing than theft.</abbr>
You appropriate use/access to something not legally yours but you do not deprive something to the other party.
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Post by dogganmguest on Dec 26, 2019 0:54:54 GMT
Just so people realize this - if any recast is found in customs they will destroy that stuff. So if you order your China Reacast stuff it might never make it to you. I am participating in few recasts group, that order stuff from china, europe and usa. and there were no cases when this happens.
That's because that particular claim is a complete load of tripe. As if customs officials were able to tell the difference between a legitimate second-hand sale and a copied model (across every brand and game, no less!), or even had the time to spend on that. I don't support the idea of purchasing recasts, but these are all the same tired old arguments as pirating video games, and have been done to death over decades. No, it's not theft. Yes, it is somewhat immoral to support someone leeching off of someone else's work. Yes, some people are still going to do it because they find the prices unreasonable. The "surely you can afford to spend $40" argument is disingenuous, since you can't play the game with $40 worth of models. For some, in different economic situations, the cost of a full army is quite unreasonable. It's not a defense, but it's not going to stop being true because it's distasteful. As far as ripping off PP's IP, the Vassal module does that to almost the fullest extent possible. You can play any list you want for free, and never need to pay any money at all; not to PP, not to a second-hand seller, not to a recaster. Where's the outrage?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 26, 2019 2:29:59 GMT
Not really. The company already earn the money by sold it. The trade of second-hand model itself does not give anything to the manufacturer, but you don't realize WHERE the model comes from. PP is not the government. They don't have any rights to force us the transfer tax. Actually, it is natural that they cannot. As long as there is no illegal copy of PP games models, the whole pool of models only comes from the factory of PP. Trading used items does not increase the pool at all. I don't know where you are coming from with the transfer tax angle. No one has brought up taxes to this point. PP doesn't pay taxes on sales you, yourself, make, any more than they pay the income taxes for your local store.
But my point is that third sentence. PP gets as much from a second-hand sale as from a recast. Nothing you have said has changed that very simple dynamic, and that is the only point I've been making. Trading used items does not increase the pool, but it doesn't give the original artists/producers any money, either. But if someone tries to get on their high horse and says second-hand is better because recasts don't give the artists money? That's disingenuous because the artist received just as much from the second-hand sale as from the recast.
The points are did PP have any gains by the model and is something other than PP can add the models pool. I said transfer tax because you said 'trade second hand gives nothing to the manufacturer.' Simply put, if they should do that, then it must be they have the rights to collect transfer tax from the government, which is nonsense. But did trading used items prohibited by the law? I don't think so. The other problem is, the models pools in the world. If PP made exactly a ten thousands of copy of PIP 31001, there is only a ten thousands of PIP 31001 models in the world. It must be. Then whatever you buy it from PP directly, retailers, used one by the other gamers, the total amount of the model never increases(it may decreases by the loss) unless PP actually make more of her. Also, after sell all of these, PP have paid for made a ten thousands of her already. Piracy models are different. Its very existence contaimnate the whole pool in the world. Normally, if you want a model you can either buy a brand new white metal scraps from PP and make it to your fully painted and assembled models in order to use it in the game, or buy an used one. Both choices are fully legal, and anyway PP had any gains from the models. The trade of used models itself does not gives any EXTRA pay but PP earn the money already by sell it alyways. And while the new items are always available unless it is discontinued, you can't always acquire the used items what you want, so buy the new item takes the vast majority of the route to gain the model. But if piracy models are enter the area, there is the problem that some models are enter without any blessing of PP. The existence of illegal copy means it allows some players to not buy any PP stuffs. It also means you can play without pay for PP at all, even without needs for pay indirectly by buy the used one. The existence of source other than PP approves means their main production line lose their natural premium of the only provider of PP model, so it is a direct threat against PP. Not to mention that it pollutes the used item trade markets. In short, change PP models -> banknote, and piracy models -> forged money, you will realize how severe it is. Well, have pride on you all, for I didn't think I can defend PP even now. Well, it is actually defend the law, though.
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