shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 21, 2019 9:49:27 GMT
My faith in humanity has been mildly restored by the display of integrity from other posters. Thank you. Well, I'll crush some of your faith by telling you recasting seems to be a part of the norm in the local miniature community. The attitude seems to be that if you can afford it, you should buy it properly, but no one will judge you if you buy recasts. And with Forgeworld models recasts are the rule, not the exception.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 21, 2019 14:26:03 GMT
My faith in humanity has been mildly restored by the display of integrity from other posters. Thank you. The attitude seems to be that if you can afford it, you should buy it properly, I think for a game that gets expensive, it's okay to buy a recast if you plan on buying the models later down the line as long as you enjoy using the models. I already own the entire FA that I could ever use of Protectorate, so I wouldn't buy any recasts, but if I could get a full army for $200 from recasts, I might look into it and actually buy the real models over time. It's like pirating video games. Most people that pirate a game will buy the actual game if they're enjoying it.
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Post by michael on Dec 21, 2019 15:44:17 GMT
My faith in humanity has been mildly restored by the display of integrity from other posters. Thank you. Well, I'll crush some of your faith by telling you recasting seems to be a part of the norm in the local miniature community. The attitude seems to be that if you can afford it, you should buy it properly, but no one will judge you if you buy recasts. And with Forgeworld models recasts are the rule, not the exception. So the justification is “Stealing a luxury item is OK if you can’t afford it?” Cool. Theft is theft.
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Post by Havock on Dec 21, 2019 20:46:03 GMT
Just so people realize this - if any recast is found in customs they will destroy that stuff. So if you order your China Reacast stuff it might never make it to you. Everything else (distribution BAHI and whatnot) are just excuses for trying to get something cehap. There are plenty of options to get something cheap, just not the newest hotness. In the end do you not have 40$ to spend on your Hobby here and there? Do you really need so many new models, becuase you aready have all your stuff painted up? Knowing someone who ordered a shit-ton of the stuff the worst he had to do was pay extra: miniatures are obscure stuff and customs has bigger things to worry about. That's EU though.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Dec 22, 2019 2:41:30 GMT
Well, I'll crush some of your faith by telling you recasting seems to be a part of the norm in the local miniature community. The attitude seems to be that if you can afford it, you should buy it properly, but no one will judge you if you buy recasts. And with Forgeworld models recasts are the rule, not the exception. So the justification is “Stealing a luxury item is OK if you can’t afford it?” Cool. Theft is theft. I've never bought a recast and I have no intention to ever do so, but don't be stupid. Theft is theft, but buying recasts is not theft. There is quite a big difference between piracy or buying bootlegged versions of products than stealing them from the producer. Really, it seems like many Europeans who -want- the product are being forced to purchase recasts when they would otherwise be purchasing directly from PP. Furthermore, if someone else is able to produce your product at the same (or better) quality as you while selling it for half the price, then maybe you need to examine your business practices. Either that, or come to an arrangement with these recasters and find a way for them to manufacture your product for you in a way that is beneficial to both you, the caster, and the consumer. Most people actually would choose to support a company even if it meant paying a little extra for the product. When the difference is paying half, a third, or even as little as a quarter of what would be paid for the "real deal" there will definitely be a subsection of consumers who take that trade. Everyone has their price. Even then we can see as a community its a small minority of players whose sense of integrity is for sale in an exchange that is purely beneficial from them. I suspect most of the people buying the models don't really have much other choice if they really want them. Besides, even without recasters the absolute glut of models available on the secondary market means there is next to no reason to buy any models from PP directly. In the past three years I believe I have only bought three NIB PP models and only because they were brand new models I really wanted on release rather than to shop around and wait for an ebay coupon or for them to pop up from secondary sellers. Entire armies can be had for 25%-40% MSRP fairly easily. No reason to buy new product, really. While I would never encourage people to go out and buy recasts, it's not appreciably different than people purchasing models secondhand. I certainly would never condemn a player for picking up secondhand armies. Buying recasts just causes us rancor because "the bad guy" is the one profiting off of it (though realistically the consumer is seeing gains as well).
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Post by Havock on Dec 22, 2019 5:44:19 GMT
Recasters do not need to pay writers, artists etc. so it makes sense that they can undercut them massively.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 22, 2019 20:38:45 GMT
I kind of want to immediately take the negative position that recasts are alright just because of the great moral arbiter of our age has decided that recasts are wrong. The problem is, actually agree with the arrogant prick. So, well done Michael, I agree with you. recasts are theft and cancer (not that he is going to see this message, he blocked me because feelings).
Though I have to be completely honest, I haven't seen WMH recasts since the HHH came out. I saw a few HHH recasts, but that was it, and I doubt there is any need to buy anything recast, you can buy anything for WMH on the secondary market for pennies on the dollar.
True story, when I am looking for a new bag for WMH or for Warhammer 40k or AoS, I will go online to the mini sell groups and eBay, and look for WMH collections with the bag included. Most of the time I can buy the entire collection with the bag, then sell the models off for 25% of retail (which seems to be the going rate) and pay far less than retail for the bag that way. I don't know why anyone would recast anything with that poor of resale value.
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Post by Havock on Dec 22, 2019 22:33:11 GMT
To be fair, PP earns as much on second hand sales as it does from recasters. Which is also why it's not theft: IP is more complex than that.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 23, 2019 1:28:01 GMT
Well, 'proxy' miniatures with good shape would be at least acceptable in law, as long as the design itself wasn't plagiarized. But NOT recast because it is just a piracy against the copyright law and trademark rights. Just make the copy of the official model is no more than a piracy.
The only situation that 'recast' would be accepted is when the company was gone and there is really no other way to get the model. Well, it is still a kind of the forgery, but AS LONG AS you don't sell it as it is a real one it would be fine in such odd situation. And it is usually only accepted to the personal creations, rather than the product.
Anyway, if a company want to sell a model, it must be either designed by themselves or get the license to make it from the designer('s company). Otherwise, it is a crime.
And, even if you made it by yourself, because we need at least one another player to play the game, you can't leave the 'copied' models on your personal area.
Although it is out of the topic, for personal copies... I did make the mold and the resin copy of the parts personally, but I never made a full model by that. I just did it for afford the parts for the conversion(extra legs, hands, or an entirely different part). My rule is simple - always make the model to be tournament legal, whatever I will participate to the official games or not.
Actually, if you just want to conversion with cheaper price, you better buy the PP models with that part. Personal molding does not guarantee the quality, and also more expensive than the shop. So called 'recast' is cheaper because they make the models with production scale.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 2:04:37 GMT
To be fair, PP earns as much on second hand sales as it does from recasters. Which is also why it's not theft: IP is more complex than that. How does PP earn anything on second hand sales? If anything, they are not getting money by people purchasing initial sales any more than your local shop is.
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on Dec 23, 2019 2:17:24 GMT
To be fair, PP earns as much on second hand sales as it does from recasters. Which is also why it's not theft: IP is more complex than that. How does PP earn anything on second hand sales? If anything, they are not getting money by people purchasing initial sales any more than your local shop is. u see, teh ansar to ur quorstion requeirs u to calcalate how much private prass maeks frum recassters and subyract dat amount from wat dey maek from 2nd hand saels. lemme kno wat u git
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 23, 2019 3:14:26 GMT
Furthermore, if someone else is able to produce your product at the same (or better) quality as you while selling it for half the price, then maybe you need to examine your business practices. Either that, or come to an arrangement with these recasters and find a way for them to manufacture your product for you in a way that is beneficial to both you, the caster, and the consumer. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. First, the reason why recasters are able to produce the product cheaper isn't because they are amazing industrial engineers who have found marvelously efficient ways to produce miniatures that the big boys refuse to adopt because for some reason they as a businesses don't like cutting their costs. The only reason they are able to produce them cheaper is because it's always cheaper to make recasts when you don't have to pay artists, sculptors, studio painters and game developers. PP can't adopt the business practices of the recasters because they need to produce an original product. Imagine I own a furniture company and every night someone sneaks in to my shop, uses my tools and my wood, and makes knockoff furniture that he sells out of the back of his truck for half price because he doesn't have to pay for tools or wood. That's basically the equivalent of what recasters are doing -- only replace "furniture" with "miniatures" and "tools and wood" with "sculpts and art." And so long as this guy is allowed to continue sneaking into my shop at night and people keep buying his stuff, no amount of "re-examining my business practices" will allow me to compete on price with someone who is able to undercut me by ripping me off. Also, miniature companies outsource their production all the time. PP outsourced some of their production and distribution to Cerberus in the UK to help deal with the European market. I also believe their injection molded plastic kits were outsourced to partners in China. It is not uncommon in the miniature industry for different aspects of miniature production -- be it concept art, sculpting, production, or painting box art -- to be outsourced to other companies or freelancers. The difference is that everyone involved is a legitimate company or freelancer, not a shady knockoff producers. Partnering with recasters is a bad idea for PP for obvious reasons, and I doubt the recasters would be interested either as they are doing quite well with their business model based on ripping off miniature companies. While I would never encourage people to go out and buy recasts, it's not appreciably different than people purchasing models secondhand. I certainly would never condemn a player for picking up secondhand armies. Buying recasts just causes us rancor because "the bad guy" is the one profiting off of it (though realistically the consumer is seeing gains as well). Except secondhand armies don't represent stolen IP and bread being taken out of the mouths of the artists, sculptors, devs, etc. Also, I don't think any miniatures company objects to people finding a loving home for miniatures they no longer want, while just about every miniatures company has a problem with recasters. Also, people who do buy secondhand armies generally also support PP by picking up new releases to fill out those armies instead of buying more recasts. And if I buy a secondhand army, that is one less army on the secondary market which could make it slightly less of a buyer's market like it is now and encourage people to eventually buy new product, while if I buy a recast army, that is one more recast army floating around. (though if you do buy armies secondhand and play at a store, at least throw some money their way by buying models or hobby supplies from them as well).
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2019 3:33:56 GMT
While I would never encourage people to go out and buy recasts, it's not appreciably different than people purchasing models secondhand. I certainly would never condemn a player for picking up secondhand armies. Buying recasts just causes us rancor because "the bad guy" is the one profiting off of it (though realistically the consumer is seeing gains as well). Except secondhand armies don't represent stolen IP and bread being taken out of the mouths of the artists, sculptors, devs, etc. Also, I don't think any miniatures company objects to people finding a loving home for miniatures they no longer want, while just about every miniatures company has a problem with recasters. Also, people who do buy secondhand armies generally also support PP by picking up new releases to fill out those armies instead of buying more recasts. And if I buy a secondhand army, that is one less army on the secondary market which could make it slightly less of a buyer's market like it is now and encourage people to eventually buy new product, while if I buy a recast army, that is one more recast army floating around. (though if you do buy armies secondhand and play at a store, at least throw some money their way by buying models or hobby supplies from them as well). Umm, no.
Buying a recast army and buying a second-hand army made up of the exact same things results in the same amount of money going to the artists and producers from that purchaser. The only difference between them was an original purchase before the second-hand army became second-hand. It's a little bit better, over all, but the buyer of the second-hand army has literally given just as much money to the original artist as if they had bought it from a recaster.
Realistically, when I buy a box, I'm not paying PP unless I buy it directly from the store. If I buy at the LGS or Amazon, PP already has already received their money since the retailer pays to get their product delivered to their location for retail (aka resale).
Now, if that recaster goes and buys more PP product to scan or the second-hand seller goes and buys a different army in a "first-hand sale", the end result is still the same.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 23, 2019 4:02:09 GMT
Except secondhand armies don't represent stolen IP and bread being taken out of the mouths of the artists, sculptors, devs, etc. Also, I don't think any miniatures company objects to people finding a loving home for miniatures they no longer want, while just about every miniatures company has a problem with recasters. Also, people who do buy secondhand armies generally also support PP by picking up new releases to fill out those armies instead of buying more recasts. And if I buy a secondhand army, that is one less army on the secondary market which could make it slightly less of a buyer's market like it is now and encourage people to eventually buy new product, while if I buy a recast army, that is one more recast army floating around. (though if you do buy armies secondhand and play at a store, at least throw some money their way by buying models or hobby supplies from them as well). Umm, no.
Buying a recast army and buying a second-hand army made up of the exact same things results in the same amount of money going to the artists and producers from that purchaser. The only difference between them was an original purchase before the second-hand army became second-hand. It's a little bit better, over all, but the buyer of the second-hand army has literally given just as much money to the original artist as if they had bought it from a recaster.
Realistically, when I buy a box, I'm not paying PP unless I buy it directly from the store. If I buy at the LGS or Amazon, PP already has already received their money since the retailer pays to get their product delivered to their location for retail (aka resale).
Now, if that recaster goes and buys more PP product to scan or the second-hand seller goes and buys a different army in a "first-hand sale", the end result is still the same.
First, I'm pretty sure if you asked anyone who worked at PP "hey how do you feel about me buying a used Menoth army off my buddy," and "hey, how do you feel about me buying a Menoth army from a recaster," you will get vastly different answers. (if you google it, you can see PP's opinion on recasting in their own words, meanwhile I don't think I've ever seen them say "no buying and selling used armies"). Also, when you buy a box from the LGS or amazon or any legitimate online seller, you are encouraging that seller to continue to stock and order more PP product, not to mention supporting your LGS if you go that route. And that, in turn, encourages PP to produce more product -- both new releases and additional runs of existing models. When you buy a box from a recaster, you are encouraging that recaster to produce more knockoffs.
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Post by Havock on Dec 23, 2019 4:03:09 GMT
To be fair, PP earns as much on second hand sales as it does from recasters. Which is also why it's not theft: IP is more complex than that. How does PP earn anything on second hand sales? If anything, they are not getting money by people purchasing initial sales any more than your local shop is. That's my point
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