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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 13, 2018 3:47:49 GMT
PPS_Soles: Nice, now shooting into deployment top of 1 zone is officially considered ok... This is the most blatant insult I've ever seen. I mean this is victim blaming isn't it? You're putting the responsibility for getting shot in deployment on the the defender before they even get to have a turn to play. I am not joking; I'm awe struck that they would pull this sort of hypocritical BS. They specifically have nerfed many different interactions that allowed the first player to hit the enemy deployment zone. From personal memory - Vayl 2 and hellmouths. Also I believe Will-work-for-food had a CID state where arkadius could hit DZ top of one. Just nerfs that hit this year. I cannot believe this. I don't want this! Is this meant to be the new stance that PP takes on their models/game? Bad ideas/models are one thing. This is literally a PP endorsed, irrational, and beyond insulting "git gud". "How did they take advantage of terrain" - They can't, they haven't moved their pieces yet. Or do you imply we should put forests and houses in deployment zones? "Where are their shield guards" - My faction only has 1 and it's stupid flippin expensive and fits in ZERO lists I build. So it wasn't on the table cuz I like playing models that DO stuff. "how did the awareness of the Cygnar player's capabilities affect positioning" - I positioned all of my models in my bag and found something better to do with my time. "At what costs" - About $4k invested into a game that's gone to waste as the game designers have lost their minds. "how was the defender's game impacted" - they never wanted to play against Cygnar again [/unbelievableRage] Seriously, is it a victim blame despite the fact that there is no victim, and more importantly, despite the fact that there is no offender in the first place? As if attacking the deployment zone is ever a sane idea? They are all gone into the history, buried with MKI.(note that it is MKI, not MKII) Don't get me wrong. I do know the problem of attacking the deployment zone, and if it is a viable option it is something ver wrong and even threaten the game. But the reality is not like that.... It's just a fancy idea that never comes to the reality. If you and your opponent are agreed to do that then it would be possible, but then it never would a competitive game.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 13, 2018 4:00:33 GMT
Well, adding Snipe to some lists does not seems broken that much. But the corner case was always a problem.... And that's why we need to think twice for them.
Also, I fear that the presence of a solo that able to cast threaten the place of the Snipe casters. Stryker1 and Maddox has the other afvantage so they will survives, perhaps, but still their advantage would be diminished. Caine1 lost most of his advantage, sadly. I don't remember how much portion Sturgis1 has in Cygnar, sadly(x2), but Caine0 would a fatal hit for him.
Arcane Shield is diffrent, for you need to put it on your warjack(or Storm Knight) all the times. But Caine0 can cycling Snipe to affecting two models/units each turn without spending your warcaster's focus and is not need for your caster's spell list with Snipe either.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 13, 2018 8:55:27 GMT
What turn 1 deplyment zone shooting option would now be available? To me this feels a lot like a histerical reaction because the model was not put on the table yet. Menoth literally got EOM on a stick, Cryx has parasite on a JR that can take very cheap arc node(s) just for comparison. To me it feels more like you would use/hot swap snipe for one turn and after that you often drop it, because you do not need the range anymore.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 13, 2018 10:39:20 GMT
What turn 1 deplyment zone shooting option would now be available? To me this feels a lot like a histerical reaction because the model was not put on the table yet. Menoth literally got EOM on a stick, Cryx has parasite on a JR that can take very cheap arc node(s) just for comparison. To me it feels more like you would use/hot swap snipe for one turn and after that you often drop it, because you do not need the range anymore. Still quite a lot... Ace, Hunters, Defenders and Triumph can all shoot into deployment. That said, comparing it with other OP options of the other zero casters doesn't make much sense. All of them are bad for the game since they are new auto-includes models that will heavily limit list building and design space of their factions. Also, what do the other factions, aside for those 4, get? How can giving a general buffs to 4 factions, including Cryx, Cygnar and Khador that are all already pretty powerful, be fair for the others that don't get (and will not get, as devs said) something similar?
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 13, 2018 11:48:37 GMT
What turn 1 deplyment zone shooting option would now be available? To me this feels a lot like a histerical reaction because the model was not put on the table yet. Menoth literally got EOM on a stick, Cryx has parasite on a JR that can take very cheap arc node(s) just for comparison. To me it feels more like you would use/hot swap snipe for one turn and after that you often drop it, because you do not need the range anymore. Still quite a lot... Ace, Hunters, Defenders and Triumph can all shoot into deployment. That said, comparing it with other OP options of the other zero casters doesn't make much sense. All of them are bad for the game since they are new auto-includes models that will heavily limit list building and design space of their factions. Also, what do the other factions, aside for those 4, get? How can giving a general buffs to 4 factions, including Cryx, Cygnar and Khador that are all already pretty powerful, be fair for the others that don't get (and will not get, as devs said) something similar? How does a defender get to the 31"? You would have: walk 5, snipe 4, shoot 16, HM Theme deploy 2 and then you still need 4. Nemo 1 could do 3, Fire Group could do 2 - so it only works if the opponent also gets +2" to their deployment. The Problem is Ace and Hunters, because they get: Move 6, AD 6, shoot 14, snipe 4, HM Theme deployment - thats 32. So that allows for Deployment shooting without any buff. Also Trick shot from Ace is nasty because you can hardly screen. I am positive that they will cut AD for them. Then it would only be possible with +2 and the opponen having an extended deployment zone. EDIT: They already cut AD from the Hunter, so it is really only Ace. No AD but 1 point down would be great for Ace, maybe also being looked at in genereal...
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 13, 2018 12:59:09 GMT
What turn 1 deplyment zone shooting option would now be available? To me this feels a lot like a histerical reaction because the model was not put on the table yet. Menoth literally got EOM on a stick, Cryx has parasite on a JR that can take very cheap arc node(s) just for comparison. To me it feels more like you would use/hot swap snipe for one turn and after that you often drop it, because you do not need the range anymore. Still quite a lot... Ace, Hunters, Defenders and Triumph can all shoot into deployment. That said, comparing it with other OP options of the other zero casters doesn't make much sense. All of them are bad for the game since they are new auto-includes models that will heavily limit list building and design space of their factions. Also, what do the other factions, aside for those 4, get? How can giving a general buffs to 4 factions, including Cryx, Cygnar and Khador that are all already pretty powerful, be fair for the others that don't get (and will not get, as devs said) something similar? Beat me to it. Right now, Protectorate, Khador and Cryx players are all claiming their X on a stick is fine because of Caine0.
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Post by mydnight on Apr 13, 2018 13:01:27 GMT
How does a defender get to the 31"? You would have: walk 5, snipe 4, shoot 16, HM Theme deploy 2 and then you still need 4. Nemo 1 could do 3, Fire Group could do 2 - so it only works if the opponent also gets +2" to their deployment. The Problem is Ace and Hunters, because they get: Move 6, AD 6, shoot 14, snipe 4, HM Theme deployment - thats 32. So that allows for Deployment shooting without any buff. Also Trick shot from Ace is nasty because you can hardly screen. I am positive that they will cut AD for them. Then it would only be possible with +2 and the opponen having an extended deployment zone. EDIT: They already cut AD from the Hunter, so it is really only Ace. No AD but 1 point down would be great for Ace, maybe also being looked at in genereal... Haley2
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 13, 2018 13:01:38 GMT
Also, I fear that the presence of a solo that able to cast threaten the place of the Snipe casters. Stryker1 and Maddox has the other afvantage so they will survives, perhaps, but still their advantage would be diminished. Caine1 lost most of his advantage, sadly. I don't remember how much portion Sturgis1 has in Cygnar, sadly(x2), but Caine0 would a fatal hit for him. Either that or it'll make them even more obnoxious, since you can have Snipe on 4 units / models in a turn rather than two.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 13, 2018 13:28:22 GMT
Still quite a lot... Ace, Hunters, Defenders and Triumph can all shoot into deployment. That said, comparing it with other OP options of the other zero casters doesn't make much sense. All of them are bad for the game since they are new auto-includes models that will heavily limit list building and design space of their factions. Also, what do the other factions, aside for those 4, get? How can giving a general buffs to 4 factions, including Cryx, Cygnar and Khador that are all already pretty powerful, be fair for the others that don't get (and will not get, as devs said) something similar? How does a defender get to the 31"? You would have: walk 5, snipe 4, shoot 16, HM Theme deploy 2 and then you still need 4. Nemo 1 could do 3, Fire Group could do 2 - so it only works if the opponent also gets +2" to their deployment. The Problem is Ace and Hunters, because they get: Move 6, AD 6, shoot 14, snipe 4, HM Theme deployment - thats 32. So that allows for Deployment shooting without any buff. Also Trick shot from Ace is nasty because you can hardly screen. I am positive that they will cut AD for them. Then it would only be possible with +2 and the opponen having an extended deployment zone. EDIT: They already cut AD from the Hunter, so it is really only Ace. No AD but 1 point down would be great for Ace, maybe also being looked at in genereal... A Defender can be on either Trencher JR (Fire Group) or Jakes1 (Energizer). Then Haley2 can TK it and cast Temporal accelleration on it. Results are: 9 (Deploy in HM) + 2 (Energizer/Fire Group) + 2 Telekinesis + 2 Temporal Accelleration + 5 Walk + 16 RNG + 4 Snipe = 40" (2" into enemy deploy zone, and it would do 2 shots thanks to Temporal Accelleration, both boostable). Hunters (even without AD) have 2 less range and 1 more walk, so they can shot 1" into enemy deploy zone.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 13, 2018 14:22:45 GMT
How does a defender get to the 31"? You would have: walk 5, snipe 4, shoot 16, HM Theme deploy 2 and then you still need 4. Nemo 1 could do 3, Fire Group could do 2 - so it only works if the opponent also gets +2" to their deployment. The Problem is Ace and Hunters, because they get: Move 6, AD 6, shoot 14, snipe 4, HM Theme deployment - thats 32. So that allows for Deployment shooting without any buff. Also Trick shot from Ace is nasty because you can hardly screen. I am positive that they will cut AD for them. Then it would only be possible with +2 and the opponen having an extended deployment zone. EDIT: They already cut AD from the Hunter, so it is really only Ace. No AD but 1 point down would be great for Ace, maybe also being looked at in genereal... A Defender can be on either Trencher JR (Fire Group) or Jakes1 (Energizer). Then Haley2 can TK it and cast Temporal accelleration on it. Results are: 9 (Deploy in HM) + 2 (Energizer/Fire Group) + 2 Telekinesis + 2 Temporal Accelleration + 5 Walk + 16 RNG + 4 Snipe = 40" (2" into enemy deploy zone, and it would do 2 shots thanks to Temporal Accelleration, both boostable). Hunters (even without AD) have 2 less range and 1 more walk, so they can shot 1" into enemy deploy zone. Ok that is true, I did not take the other 2 JRs into account. Let's see if they change Caines Snipe to something like Fire Group then? Or Battle Group only? Also again Haley 2 and Heavy Metal are necessary for this - always the same offenders
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Apr 13, 2018 15:02:11 GMT
A Defender can be on either Trencher JR (Fire Group) or Jakes1 (Energizer). Then Haley2 can TK it and cast Temporal accelleration on it. Results are: 9 (Deploy in HM) + 2 (Energizer/Fire Group) + 2 Telekinesis + 2 Temporal Accelleration + 5 Walk + 16 RNG + 4 Snipe = 40" (2" into enemy deploy zone, and it would do 2 shots thanks to Temporal Accelleration, both boostable). Hunters (even without AD) have 2 less range and 1 more walk, so they can shot 1" into enemy deploy zone. Ok that is true, I did not take the other 2 JRs into account. Let's see if they change Caines Snipe to something like Fire Group then? Or Battle Group only? Also again Haley 2 and Heavy Metal are necessary for this - always the same offenders So then the end result of this will be "Nerf Haley 2 she is too powerful" It just seems like Snipe on a stick will impact Cygnars other models and cause more "balancing".
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 13, 2018 15:09:11 GMT
A Defender can be on either Trencher JR (Fire Group) or Jakes1 (Energizer). Then Haley2 can TK it and cast Temporal accelleration on it. Results are: 9 (Deploy in HM) + 2 (Energizer/Fire Group) + 2 Telekinesis + 2 Temporal Accelleration + 5 Walk + 16 RNG + 4 Snipe = 40" (2" into enemy deploy zone, and it would do 2 shots thanks to Temporal Accelleration, both boostable). Hunters (even without AD) have 2 less range and 1 more walk, so they can shot 1" into enemy deploy zone. Ok that is true, I did not take the other 2 JRs into account. Let's see if they change Caines Snipe to something like Fire Group then? Or Battle Group only? Also again Haley 2 and Heavy Metal are necessary for this - always the same offenders If they do go for Fire Group for Caine0 that would be the most cop-out lazy design choice ever. The Trencher Junior already has Fire Group, it would just mean overlap.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Apr 13, 2018 15:33:54 GMT
I've said from the start that these models would've been super cool for like a flavour league/season. Kinda like the faction swap one from forever ago. Beyond that, I think they don't do much good for the game as a whole, but I might just be a whiner, so who knows.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 13, 2018 16:20:54 GMT
PPS Pagani:
Finally they got rid of Snipe! Fire for Effect still seems very powerful, but at least some big combos are gone.
Yet, some models with FFE seems scary.
Denny in the meantime probably got even more powerful. Cryx always had a strong game against armor, but a strong hit fixer in every list seems very strong...
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 13, 2018 16:23:56 GMT
Is it a time for Trencher Cannon Crew, huh?
I don't think that FFE is useful with a coloosal since it can boost already. If you want FOUR boosted damage rolls it is indeed a quite noticeable progress, though.
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