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Post by Aegis on Apr 11, 2018 18:17:16 GMT
Though here's a question I pose to the Cygnar group at large: What if Caine keeps snipe through the CID and into release? Does he become your version of the choir? Would you be disappointed with that outcome? He would for sure become a choir-like piece (or JR warcaster-like). An auto-include in every list that permits it. Snipe is just too good to pass, even at the cost to skip Arcane Shield if the points require it. That said, I would be pissed off. Giving Snipe to Cygnar will without doubt lead to multiple otherwise un-necessary nerfs on other models over time (When a nasty combo will get whined out, the other piece, and not Caine0, would likely be nerfed, even if the same piece is ok without auto-Snipe). Practically, it will, exactly like Choir, become something that heavily limitate Cygnar design space. We already have Ol'JR that sorta does with Arcane Shield on a stick, we don't need another. Out of curiosity, is there any information why they want Caine to have 'Snipe"? Basically they want to make something nice to celebrate the 15 years, so they are trying to make OP models that remember their grown up versions playable by the 4 original factions. They have chosen a big buff that is defining of the 4 factions and created a buff-bot on a stick with it. In the case of Cygnar, since it's a strong ranged faction and since Snipe is the best spell on Caine1's card, they chosen Snipe...
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Post by gobber on Apr 11, 2018 18:34:12 GMT
Though here's a question I pose to the Cygnar group at large: What if Caine keeps snipe through the CID and into release? Does he become your version of the choir? Would you be disappointed with that outcome? Can I pose a moral question? just out of curiosity, not judgement. If it is released with snipe would anyone legitimately feel bad for using it? It's considered fine by the company and legal for play. So you're not wrong for playing it as is... I guess I'm asking - is there a point where you will say "no" to a model just on an emotion related basis when it comes to the power of the model? I mean I don't really play Abby 2 or Fyanna flying circus for that kind of emotional reason. But I don't feel those casters are as blatant and simple as the 0 casters right now. I doubt I'll play Caine much just because I rarely dig out my cygnar models, but if I see someone running Caine0 across the table during game night I'll probably decline the game rather than waste my time with an unenjoyable experience.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 11, 2018 19:57:47 GMT
If it is released with snipe would anyone legitimately feel bad for using it? It's considered fine by the company and legal for play. So you're not wrong for playing it as is... I guess I'm asking - is there a point where you will say "no" to a model just on an emotion related basis when it comes to the power of the model? I mean I don't really play Abby 2 or Fyanna flying circus for that kind of emotional reason. But I don't feel those casters are as blatant and simple as the 0 casters right now. For the entirety of Mk2 I refused to play Haley2 and Stryker2 outright. I do not even own the models and proxied Haley2 only once or twice at the request of friends ahead of tournaments. In the case of Haley2 it was entirely an emotional reaction to the power level of the model. Even when Mk3 hit I felt she was still too far above the curve and therefore still don't own her. Stryker was more irrational coupled with the pessimism of the deeply paranoid regarding his board presence and overload special rule. There are quite a few models I dislike enough to avoid using based on power, it was more common in Mk2 when certain models could be called auto-includes/staples because of the problems they solved for some factions. In Mk3 it's perhaps less egregious an issue, particularly with 'dynamic updates' and CiD but themes also play a part since the model restrictions they impose can sometimes curtail the excesses of the more potent new additions. I probably won't play Caine0 but part will be the unlikelihood of me owning him. I no longer care enough to try and keep up with model releases and just hope I can get by with what I have.
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Post by geo67 on Apr 12, 2018 15:38:03 GMT
For the entirety of Mk2 I refused to play Haley2 and Stryker2 outright. I do not even own the models and proxied Haley2 only once or twice at the request of friends ahead of tournaments. In the case of Haley2 it was entirely an emotional reaction to the power level of the model. Even when Mk3 hit I felt she was still too far above the curve and therefore still don't own her. Stryker was more irrational coupled with the pessimism of the deeply paranoid regarding his board presence and overload special rule. I may proxy Caine0, because I love Caine. But I agree. In MK2 I never dropped Haley2, even tho I picked up the model for a song and a dance, and painted her up. It just felt kinda dirty to run her. Funny side note, I challenged a Cryx guy to a game in MK2, and when he saw my Cygnar, he refused to play me. He was like, "It's just no fun for me to play agains Cygnar, and especially if you're dropping Haley2 into me." I was pretty green at the time, but it made me shelf her, I look back now, and should have challenged his manhood, and playing ability, and slapped him across the face with a glove. LOL.
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Post by jagius021 on Apr 12, 2018 18:19:34 GMT
We can, and will, Female Dog. But ultimately you adapt. That's the point of it. I started this game playing cygnar because my buddy would wreck my face in 40k with Tau (who have always had the capacity to destroy you in your deployment zone.) And when I tested my lists that allowed me to do the same thing, try and assassinate on turn 1 it worked....exactly once. Then my friend just played around it and my one trick pony became pretty underwhelming.
The meta is and always will shift around. Too much shooting and anti shooting pops up, and then that gets countered by lists who aren't hampered by anti shooting. And those anti anti shooting start to get pegged by... The shooting lists.
If you really feel like you wasted 4k in this game because a solo came out, take a breather. Get your emotions in check and try not to react. Think of solutions instead of the problem. Your feelings are valid because you're experiencing them, but it doesn't make your beliefs surrounding then automatically true.
You may not be able to play the lists you like to play, but we don't always get to do that when it's competitive. If it's casual, just make a gentleman's agreement. I used to not play Haley 2 in mk2 because it was unfun for my friends. And my friend wouldn't butcher 3. Because firetruck that guy.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 12, 2018 18:30:22 GMT
I don't see Cygnar being top tier i.e. tier 1 or tier 0 god mode, so this shunning of Caine0 before he is even released is a bit...odd to me.
So, lets think, where is snipe best used? Trenchers. But, from my understanding Caine0 is only being released in Sons of the Tempest and Heavy Metal. Maybe double Blazer w/ Snipe is the ticket to easy street, but that would mean I would have to take Stryker1, which has always be a bit under par. So, really, I'm I cannot maximize a free costing Caine0 in a Gravedigger's theme list without going non-theme. So then, you have to ask yourself is Caine0 worth it in a Trencher non-theme list?
I'm not saying the other faction "super solos" wont break the game or give them a huge benefit. What I am saying is that, from what I can see, this new addition isn't the doom that I think some are saying he is.
Now if we had liberal access to damage modifier spells or debuff control spells you could grab a Mason Jar and bottle your opponents tears in it and mail it off the PP stating you broke the game. lol But, until then, I think Cygnar's power level will hold exactly where it is.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 12, 2018 19:47:35 GMT
I don't see Cygnar being top tier i.e. tier 1 or tier 0 god mode, so this shunning of Caine0 before he is even released is a bit...odd to me. So, lets think, where is snipe best used? Trenchers. But, from my understanding Caine0 is only being released in Sons of the Tempest and Heavy Metal. Maybe double Blazer w/ Snipe is the ticket to easy street, but that would mean I would have to take Stryker1, which has always be a bit under par. So, really, I'm I cannot maximize a free costing Caine0 in a Gravedigger's theme list without going non-theme. So then, you have to ask yourself is Caine0 worth it in a Trencher non-theme list? I'm not saying the other faction "super solos" wont break the game or give them a huge benefit. What I am saying is that, from what I can see, this new addition isn't the doom that I think some are saying he is. Now if we had liberal access to damage modifier spells or debuff control spells you could grab a Mason Jar and bottle your opponents tears in it and mail it off the PP stating you broke the game. lol But, until then, I think Cygnar's power level will hold exactly where it is. Cygnar is Tier 1. Along with Cryx and, arguably, Grymkin. Until the Nemo3 nerf goes through, they're probably tier 0.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 12, 2018 20:16:09 GMT
Really? I didn't know that. Well, that makes me happy. lol But, there are a lot of strong factions out there. It is a bit off topic, but what happened to PoM. they used to be Tier0 in MkII.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 12, 2018 21:04:37 GMT
If you really feel like you wasted 4k in this game because a solo came out, take a breather. Get your emotions in check and try not to react. Think of solutions instead of the problem. Your feelings are valid because you're experiencing them, but it doesn't make your beliefs surrounding then automatically true. Who are you? I like you. You are now Best. (Seriously, very considerate response) I was being intentionally unreasonable, hence the [/rage] tag. I know I've not wasted money yada yada just because Caine exists. I've long gotten over the blind hatred of Cygnar as a good friend and Cygnar player ended up being the only other person to show up to the local store. So I got enough of an introduction to the shenanigans. Though he never played Nemo 3... Glad for that. I specifically mean Stormsmith Dropout (formerly Phoenix Forger) on these boards. he has put up with my Legion BS and my Cygnar bashing jokes the most.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 12, 2018 21:09:17 GMT
Really? I didn't know that. Well, that makes me happy. lol But, there are a lot of strong factions out there. It is a bit off topic, but what happened to PoM. they used to be Tier0 in MkII. MKIII happened. Threw everything out the windows. Cryx has gone through a full on roller coaster from MK2 top dog, to MK3 release dumpster fire (only by perception), back to WINNING with Ghost fleet, then Denny 1 nerfed, then Black industries. It's been mind boggling. But Cygnar has been #1 since MKIII dropped. Essentially. Holding more wins and top place finishes than the entirety of hordes (before grymkin release). Until Ghost fleet Cygnar had more total placements then then next 3 factions combined. Cygnar is just good and it's players are probably some of the most experienced and specialized of them all.
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Post by jagius021 on Apr 12, 2018 23:00:58 GMT
Haha, sorry it's my work showing through, I try to be empathic and reasonable of what people are experiencing though. And I've also had a lot of disappointment in games and these things have helped me cope with it
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 12, 2018 23:30:53 GMT
Does Snipe on journeyman actually break something or people just don't like Snipe? It's not like Snipe wasn't available to Cygnar before.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 12, 2018 23:54:07 GMT
Does Snipe on journeyman actually break something or people just don't like Snipe? It's not like Snipe wasn't available to Cygnar before. I don't think it was too bad until they gave him access to ace, who has trick shot. vulnerable yet critical support models can go missing before being able to be used and protected now.
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Post by gobber on Apr 13, 2018 0:07:55 GMT
Does Snipe on journeyman actually break something or people just don't like Snipe? It's not like Snipe wasn't available to Cygnar before. I don't think it'd be impossible to balance snipe properly but to me that's beside the point.. I don't like that it encourages games which are made or broken on a bot1/top2 assassination run. I find there's a tendency for these list types to result in an unpleasantly uninteractive short game that wasn't worth the time to unpack my models, or I brought a hard gunline counter and it's an unpleasant experience for the other side. As someone who generally only has an opportunity for one game a week, I'm not looking forward to this change regardless of power level.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 13, 2018 0:24:31 GMT
Does Snipe on journeyman actually break something or people just don't like Snipe? It's not like Snipe wasn't available to Cygnar before. Snipe on a Journeyman is what I dreamed for since I started playing WM. I can't count the times I have tought "If only JR had Snipe instead of Arcane Shield, this model/combo would be great!". That said, the more I got experience into the game and Cygnar, the more I understood why having access to Snipe with all casters was a bad idea. It's true that we have 4 casters with Snipe, but those casters are either quite poor (Sturgis, Caine1), or don't synergize at all with ranged game (Stryker0, Maddox). Actually, having Snipe and some form of ranged support (Deadeye) is the only reason Caine1 sees some play in some niche lists... Snipe is a very powerful spell, that can give you an extra turn of shooting if used on things with already long range, or that could permit to pieces with massive output but poor range (like Dynamo) to do their massive damage from a safe distance. The problem is that there are a lot of models and casters in Cygnar that are designed to give very good buffs to the ranged game. Usually, the typical counter-game against them is to bring something that can weather the storm (aka, survive the shooting) and arrive in melee with still enough presence to deal with the mediocre melee presence of those lists. Giving access to an extra turn of shooting to list designed to buff ranged damage is huge, and that is what breaks Snipe on Caine0. Not only Snipe multiplies the potential attrition of those lists (because you start to shot earlier), but also multiplies the potential assassination threats to the enemy caster. To that, you have to add casters that already have big threat extensions (like Haley2) or ranged RNG buffs (Fire Group), weren't designed to be possibly stacked with another big RNG buff, allowing things as bad as shoting into the enemy deploy zone turn 1. For all these reason, while I would love to be able to pull out wicked combos with Snipe, I feel that it would be far from balanced to permit so. And the biggest problem isn't even only that... Even in the case that somehow I'm proven wrong, and Snipe overall doesn't break the game, it would still be a bad addiction to the game, since it would create a new auto-include model (that are always bad, since they limit list diversity) and would probably limit the future design space of the faction (since every new release will have to take in account that Snipe could be there, so we would probably see future models having shorter RNG or threat than they could have, to balance the fact that Snipe could be there to buff it).
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