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Post by greytemplar on Apr 5, 2018 23:39:38 GMT
Eye is definitely powerful, but it’s not close to broken. Especially considering the issues Protectorate has it really isn’t that bad. It’s not a NPE, it’s not a major piece of denial or anything. It’s just a small hit and damage buff.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557 
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 0:00:38 GMT
Welp, CID extended one week for Anniversary models. Git testing!
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 6, 2018 0:18:27 GMT
Welp, CID extended one week for Anniversary models. Git testing! Thank. Firetrucking. God. I mean, it's still going to be dicey as to whether I can get games in (exams + I don't play any of the factions in question) but...at least there's time to rein them in a bit, and hopefully this extension means that PP realizes there's more work to do here than was anticipated. |
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 6, 2018 0:33:10 GMT
Eye is definitely powerful, but it’s not close to broken. Especially considering the issues Protectorate has it really isn’t that bad. It’s not a NPE, it’s not a major piece of denial or anything. It’s just a small hit and damage buff. And if that statement came from someone who wasn't a menoth player it would carry weight but ive seen too much posting to believe people on this forum have a decent eye for actual balance regarding their own factions. |
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Post by Aegis on Apr 6, 2018 0:47:40 GMT
Eye is definitely powerful, but it’s not close to broken. Especially considering the issues Protectorate has it really isn’t that bad. It’s not a NPE, it’s not a major piece of denial or anything. It’s just a small hit and damage buff. And if that statement came from someone who wasn't a menoth player it would carry weight but ive seen too much posting to believe people on this forum have a decent eye for actual balance regarding their own factions. Well, I'm a Cygnar player and I'm saying Snipe shouldn't be on a stick, so while everyone is a little biased of their own factions, there are a lot of scales of grey into biases. |
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Post by elmagnifico on Apr 6, 2018 0:52:28 GMT
Here's a dumb idea that'd make them Completely Balanced(TM): Each stays exactly the same, but is in precisely 0 themes.
*is promptly booed off the stage*
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of them, and I personally don't have a beef with any of these Jrs relative to each other, I can only hope Caine keeps Spirit Door so he can yo-yo a minuteman that's gone ape on something; but right this minute it wouldn't be fair to ret, mercs and hordes to put these out into the competitive stage. Ipso ergo, you want snipe/boundless/eye/parasite on a stick? You pay ~15 in missed freebies for it.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 6, 2018 1:27:29 GMT
Eye is definitely powerful, but it’s not close to broken. Especially considering the issues Protectorate has it really isn’t that bad. It’s not a NPE, it’s not a major piece of denial or anything. It’s just a small hit and damage buff. And if that statement came from someone who wasn't a menoth player it would carry weight but ive seen too much posting to believe people on this forum have a decent eye for actual balance regarding their own factions. Unfortunately, this type of logic would lead to no one who plays a faction able to comment on his own faction's models for fear of bias. That conclusion is 1) outright false, and 2) would defeat the purpose of CID, or at the very least cut the number of contributing batreps by 90%. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 6, 2018 1:30:25 GMT
[snip] the worst it does is give a single cygnar jack/colossal the same range as a conquest in very specific lists. Slight correction - it gives two models a range buff per round. upkeep on A, A activates, cast on B, B activates. Very powerful. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 6, 2018 1:35:27 GMT
And if that statement came from someone who wasn't a menoth player it would carry weight but ive seen too much posting to believe people on this forum have a decent eye for actual balance regarding their own factions. Unfortunately, this type of logic would lead to no one who plays a faction able to comment on his own faction's models for fear of bias. That conclusion is 1) outright false, and 2) would defeat the purpose of CID, or at the very least cut the number of contributing batreps by 90%. I picked up Protectorate because it's so much more powerful than Legion. I play it and enjoy it greatly. Yet I can't imagine why EoM isn't the only thing on his cards. He is absolutely and unreasonably ridiculous. Look at EoM in this light. Fathful Masses grants a +2/+2 by way of hand of vengeance. HoV triggers onlyu if something dies. The theme also restricts what models you can take. Sevy 0 is a walking +1/+1 with no restrictions on models nor activation trigger. He is HALF a theme bonus by himself. Plus he has spells and yes, iff needed he can be a super combat solo. |
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 6, 2018 3:56:10 GMT
So I played a game with sevvy0 today and I think a lot of the screaming of OP is unwarranted. He is too good for sure, but not in anyway as bonkers as some people are letting on.
Ill be posting a CiD report tomorrow, but basically, I think he should take the following changes:
1) Drop Mystic wards: Random spell denial is bad and he is already very hard to remove
2) Reduce pow of the staff to 12: Pow 14 Mat 7 is just too good with everything else
Road to war requires you to take a heavy to really leverage it properly in the themes he is allowed in, so I feel that is acceptable. Eye of menoth has a very limited bubble when considering SR17 scenarios. You pretty much have to pick a side of the table to leverage it properly in EI and CM bricks up typically anyways.
Overall, I say take the 2 proposed nerfs and he is fine.
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Post by gobber on Apr 6, 2018 4:36:25 GMT
So I played a game with sevvy0 today and I think a lot of the screaming of OP is unwarranted. He is too good for sure, but not in anyway as bonkers as some people are letting on. Ill be posting a CiD report tomorrow, but basically, I think he should take the following changes: 1) Drop Mystic wards: Random spell denial is bad and he is already very hard to remove 2) Reduce pow of the staff to 12: Pow 14 Mat 7 is just too good with everything else Road to war requires you to take a heavy to really leverage it properly in the themes he is allowed in, so I feel that is acceptable. Eye of menoth has a very limited bubble when considering SR17 scenarios. You pretty much have to pick a side of the table to leverage it properly in EI and CM bricks up typically anyways. Overall, I say take the 2 proposed nerfs and he is fine. I rather like this suggestion. I'd go a bit further on his melee stats and make him mat5; even understanding he probably ought to get somewhat weaker as he gets older, going from base mat6 as a journeyman to base mat4 as a warcaster is weird. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 6, 2018 4:37:14 GMT
So I played a game with sevvy0 today and I think a lot of the screaming of OP is unwarranted. He is too good for sure, but not in anyway as bonkers as some people are letting on. Ill be posting a CiD report tomorrow, but basically, I think he should take the following changes: 1) Drop Mystic wards: Random spell denial is bad and he is already very hard to remove 2) Reduce pow of the staff to 12: Pow 14 Mat 7 is just too good with everything else Road to war requires you to take a heavy to really leverage it properly in the themes he is allowed in, so I feel that is acceptable. Eye of menoth has a very limited bubble when considering SR17 scenarios. You pretty much have to pick a side of the table to leverage it properly in EI and CM bricks up typically anyways. Overall, I say take the 2 proposed nerfs and he is fine. My main concern is with how survivable he is (plus his personal output). Did he die in your matchup? If so, how much investment did it take to kill him? Because 5 focus, plus oracular vision, plus small base (AKA easy to block LOS to) means that he should realistically take a TON of effort to kill. I ran the math, and I'm pretty sure he's actually harder to kill than Sevvy1 (if he doesn't have vision on him) due to higher Def + Arm, and Oracular vision. |
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 6, 2018 5:36:59 GMT
gobber yeah Mat 7 is kind of hardcore for sure, but I think it makes more sense for young sevvy to have that level of combat prowess. But as far as balance goes, if mat 6 is still too much, sure, make him mat 5 base oncomingstorm I was playing EI so lots of hard hitting weaponmaster bodies to hide behind. I also took a devout in his BG for the shield guard. My opponent was playing devo host though, so not really any good ways to scalple in that theme. If you take away mystic wards I actually think he can be killed more reasonably. I am afraid taking away oracular or reducing his base stats may actually make him to easy to kill. 15/14 might be the sweet spot though, I would have to test it though. Def 14 I fear would be too low.
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Post by gobber on Apr 6, 2018 6:00:26 GMT
macdaddy PP also knows more about scrutators than we do until exemplar CID. I guess this strongly suggests mat6 on the base scrutators? Going off old man Sevvy I had figured on them being more of a support unit than practicing melee combat but that may well not be the case. Nemo and the stormcallers are all mat5 so whatever's happening, this seems like a rather atypical case of atrophy. Regarding defenses, I'd strike oracular vision first. 15/15 makes sense for young sevvy and focus5 ought to make him plenty difficult to kill. If they're committed to some form of the vision ability on him, then taking inspiration from Vayl's talion ability (limited to 5 damage) might be a way to tone it down. This could also be a good opportunity to ask to reword the spell barrier ability on the devout from "controlling warcaster" to "battlegroup controller?"
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 6, 2018 6:18:52 GMT
macdaddy PP also knows more about scrutators than we do until exemplar CID. I guess this strongly suggests mat6 on the base scrutators? Going off old man Sevvy I had figured on them being more of a support unit than practicing melee combat but that may well not be the case. Nemo and the stormcallers are all mat5 so whatever's happening, this seems like a rather atypical case of atrophy. Regarding defenses, I'd strike oracular vision first. 15/15 makes sense for young sevvy and focus5 ought to make him plenty difficult to kill. If they're committed to some form of the vision ability on him, then taking inspiration from Vayl's talion ability (limited to 5 damage) might be a way to tone it down. This could also be a good opportunity to ask to reword the spell barrier ability on the devout from "controlling warcaster" to "battlegroup controller?" All very valid points. I know 15/15 is not very hard to kill considering he wants to play so far forward. That's my primary reasoning for wanting to keep oracular. He will be right in the thick of it and I think he needs the extra durability to not be a one shot wonder since he already has a massive target on his head. |
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