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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 5, 2018 17:15:24 GMT
Is Caine0 available in Trencher theme though to make direct comparison? Snipe is more valuable in theme with big ranged units than in jack theme for example. I don't think so but he would be available in the others, storm division in particular would be quite brutal with snipe and would certainly raise the popularity of storm blades. 11 POW 16 (leader bonus and firefly) assault shots that threaten 18-24" seems a bit over the top for a Nemo3 list.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 5, 2018 17:19:42 GMT
Better tell Blizzard and Riot that they should be devs because Overwatch and League have semi-public test servers. Such a shame. Do they release Eilish? does the name Xin Zhao Strike Terror in your heart?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 5, 2018 17:44:13 GMT
I wish that PP would refrain from putting absolutely every model into CID, the bile and anger it causes is not nice to be around. I would rather they just release something that is fair to start with (like they used to do for 13 years), rather than throwing out OP crap and getting everyone in a rage until they dial it back. The bile and anger are a problem, but it's more because a lot of the People in the CID forums decided to promote themselves from Tester to Game Designer and rant at them like they own stock. It is perfectly valid to throw outliers into your test pool just to get more data points. Testers should not be freaking out about it. If PP wants more data points, give them more data points The real problem is that PPs Testing method is not fully Objective and it hasn't eliminated tester bias. Until they manage to do that it will always be flawed in one form or another. If your comments in CID use phrases like "this feels like..", or "it seems that...", or "it could be that..." when discussing models, then it probably it is filled with bias and subjectiveness.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 17:54:09 GMT
The bile and anger are a problem, but it's more because a lot of the People in the CID forums decided to promote themselves from Tester to Game Designer and rant at them like they own stock. It is perfectly valid to throw outliers into your test pool just to get more data points. Testers should not be freaking out about it. If PP wants more data points, give them more data points The real problem is that PPs Testing method is not fully Objective and it hasn't eliminated tester bias. Until they manage to do that it will always be flawed in one form or another. If your comments in CID use phrases like "this feels like..", or "it seems that...", or "it could be that..." when discussing models, then it probably it is filled with bias and subjectiveness. As a software and webpage designer I would never throw out a clearly broken product, one that is clearly out of scope, or just not what the customer ordered. I also could not build my relationship with the customer or beta testers releasing content and saying "Hey this part of the program is broken. I know it's broken and not what we need. But I want to to spend YOUR time testing it to prove to me all the different ways it is broken" Doing so here is not as clean cut but they are still making some drastic implementations with very little time to do any testing. Eilish is a good example but both parameters (model count and time tested) were much more reasonable.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 5, 2018 18:16:14 GMT
As a software and webpage designer I would never throw out a clearly broken product or one that is clearly out of scope or just not what the customer ordered. I also could not build my relationship with the customer or beta testers releasing caontent and saying "Hey this part of the program is broken. I know it's broken and not what we need. But I want to to spend YOUR time testing it to prove to me all the different ways it is broken" Doing so here is not as clean cut but they are still making some drastic implementations with very little time to do any testing. The only thing you said that I agree with is that 1 week seems like a small amount of time to test. I had the same criticism when they cut the Berserker chassis box count on the last week. That said, as a software developer myself, these are still NOT final products. Nobody using these rules right now are Customers playing with a purchase. They are testers trying to get data. Also, as a scientist (got my PhD a few years back), even if this iteration is out of scope, if the researcher feels the data obtained in this test case has value, then testing is perfectly valid. This program is voluntary, if you feel your time is better spent doing other things than testing, go for it. But the program is also an Empirical method. Saying "this is not worth my time" is valid, but saying "This is not worth my time for obvious reasons" is worthless to the Designers/Researchers.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 18:21:48 GMT
The only thing you said that I agree with is that 1 week seems like a small amount of time to test. I had the same criticism when they cut the Berserker chassis box count on the last week. That said, as a software developer myself, these are still NOT final products. Nobody using these rules right now are Customers playing with a purchase. They are testers trying to get data. Also, as a scientist (got my PhD a few years back), even if this iteration is out of scope, if the researcher feels the data obtained in this test case has value, then testing is perfectly valid. This program is voluntary, if you feel your time is better spent doing other things than testing, go for it. But the program is also an Empirical method. Saying "this is not worth my time" is valid, but saying "This is not worth my time for obvious reasons" is worthless to the Designers/Researchers. true and true. But I feel as though PP are decidedly not setting an expectation that "we want to test snipe in the faction, it may leave. We value your feedback" and instead a has specifically stated "We are not changing Snipe. WE don't see it as a problem". (Check last page where I quote Soles from the CID thread) So yes, if they want to test things outside of clear intent to implement, that I believe this is, I would be more than accepting of outlandish ideas in CID.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 5, 2018 18:39:19 GMT
So yes, if they want to test things outside of clear intent to implement, that I believe this is, I would be more than accepting of outlandish ideas in CID. Ok, this I can sympathize with. The Zero Casters weren't put into testing with the regular "Unit Concept" notes of other CIDs, and I think that set things rolling in the wrong direction for the people that didn't catch the Live Stream. If they had stated in the Unit Concept write up something like "The intention is to have these models be over the power curve, they should provide a Buff that their respective Factions are known for and the buff should be reminiscent of their full caster form" then reception would have been better I think. Like it or not, the game has a bell curve of power. The thing with CID is that PP now gets to decide willingly what gets put over the curve, and what has to stay in the middle. Which frankly I think is OK.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 5, 2018 19:26:56 GMT
The bile and anger are a problem, but it's more because a lot of the People in the CID forums decided to promote themselves from Tester to Game Designer and rant at them like they own stock. It is perfectly valid to throw outliers into your test pool just to get more data points. Testers should not be freaking out about it. If PP wants more data points, give them more data points The real problem is that PPs Testing method is not fully Objective and it hasn't eliminated tester bias. Until they manage to do that it will always be flawed in one form or another. If your comments in CID use phrases like "this feels like..", or "it seems that...", or "it could be that..." when discussing models, then it probably it is filled with bias and subjectiveness. Just wanted to say that I strongly agree with your position. I would add that subjective data ("this feels like..." etc. statements) do have value and should be communicated, but should not be prioritized/emphasized, especially at the expense of objective data. I am looking forward to throwing down a Sevy0 and Sorscha0 match this weekend. I will provide both types of data to PP next week. Should be a good time!
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Post by elshinare on Apr 5, 2018 20:40:48 GMT
Wurmwood (Groot) 0...just tiny stick on a base
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Apr 5, 2018 20:57:22 GMT
The only thing you said that I agree with is that 1 week seems like a small amount of time to test. I had the same criticism when they cut the Berserker chassis box count on the last week. That said, as a software developer myself, these are still NOT final products. Nobody using these rules right now are Customers playing with a purchase. They are testers trying to get data. Also, as a scientist (got my PhD a few years back), even if this iteration is out of scope, if the researcher feels the data obtained in this test case has value, then testing is perfectly valid. This program is voluntary, if you feel your time is better spent doing other things than testing, go for it. But the program is also an Empirical method. Saying "this is not worth my time" is valid, but saying "This is not worth my time for obvious reasons" is worthless to the Designers/Researchers. true and true. But I feel as though PP are decidedly not setting an expectation that "we want to test snipe in the faction, it may leave. We value your feedback" and instead a has specifically stated "We are not changing Snipe. WE don't see it as a problem". (Check last page where I quote Soles from the CID thread) So yes, if they want to test things outside of clear intent to implement, that I believe this is, I would be more than accepting of outlandish ideas in CID. Not really what Soles said at all, not sure how you can quote him a page ago and then twist what he said so much one page later. I do think Snipe is an issue... and really I think he is the only issue. Sevvy is super good but restricted by theme, and Denny/sorcha are fine.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 21:47:34 GMT
As a software and webpage designer I would never throw out a clearly broken product, one that is clearly out of scope, or just not what the customer ordered. I also could not build my relationship with the customer or beta testers releasing content and saying "Hey this part of the program is broken. I know it's broken and not what we need. But I want to to spend YOUR time testing it to prove to me all the different ways it is broken" Doing so here is not as clean cut but they are still making some drastic implementations with very little time to do any testing. Eilish is a good example but both parameters (model count and time tested) were much more reasonable. Then as a software and webpage designer, you should know that sometimes you come up with systems that a client doesn't request, but they may enjoy. At least PP is acknowledging that testing is needed by putting it on CiD, as opposed to releasing a printed book that makes the previous generation of models weep at their new weakness, and then declare everything is great and never care about balance like a certain other company does. You also should know that the rarely is the first product given to the customer ever launched as is. It always goes through changes before launch, even if it is just to stomp out bugs. This is little different from WoW's Death Knight, Monk, or Demon Hunter. Powerful when first given to test, then toned down before launch, then toned down over patches later as the shiney wears off. I'm not a developer, but I have been through enough MMORPG betas (and an alpha or two) to know all of that.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 5, 2018 22:32:53 GMT
People are asking for Ghost walk on Denny 0 to replace dark seduction... And more people are agreeing with the idea -.-" I give up. I opened like 16 tabs of threads to read to find hope and the first one is ludicrous beyond measure. I made the mistake of checking out the Protectorate forums, and got this shining gem: Note to the faithful who will post on CID: PLEASE DO NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY HERE. Mystic ward in particular is a soft option and we can push for harder denial. Arcane ward, banishing ward, or castigate would all be options I'd love to work with instead.This does highlight a flaw of the Theme Age, though. Because the cost of most solos has become 0, they can no longer be balanced by cost, so now 10" EoM costs the same as a solo with Empower. (And the need for a warjack is only really a balancing factor for Khador, whose jacks want to be moving close to the enemy. Cygnar and Protectorate have jacks that can hang back and contribute, Cryx has dirt-cheap bonejacks).
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Apr 5, 2018 23:02:59 GMT
Cryx getting Parasite on tap (albeit expensively) seems crazy good to me. The Caine one seems tailor made to rock Chargers (like every other model with the ability to augment ranged attacks at all and has focus it can allocate).
I'll be honest, i find them a little boring / uninspired.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 5, 2018 23:22:58 GMT
People are asking for Ghost walk on Denny 0 to replace dark seduction... And more people are agreeing with the idea -.-" I give up. I opened like 16 tabs of threads to read to find hope and the first one is ludicrous beyond measure. I made the mistake of checking out the Protectorate forums, and got this shining gem: Note to the faithful who will post on CID: PLEASE DO NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY HERE. Mystic ward in particular is a soft option and we can push for harder denial. Arcane ward, banishing ward, or castigate would all be options I'd love to work with instead.This does highlight a flaw of the Theme Age, though. Because the cost of most solos has become 0, they can no longer be balanced by cost, so now 10" EoM costs the same as a solo with Empower. (And the need for a warjack is only really a balancing factor for Khador, whose jacks want to be moving close to the enemy. Cygnar and Protectorate have jacks that can hang back and contribute, Cryx has dirt-cheap bonejacks). Yeah, I lol'd when I saw that one. The facebook groups are Firetrucking fantastic, too. Every faction seems to be convinced that their own journeyman is fine to underpowered, while the other 3 are OMGBORKEN!!!!
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 5, 2018 23:32:39 GMT
The one i have the most concerns about are snipe on tap and bubble of eye of menoth. Sevvy0 could be basically spelless and that eye of menoth thing makes him a consideration for inclusion. Not even hugely concerned about snipe on tap either, the worst it does is give a single cygnar jack/colossal the same range as a conquest in very specific lists.
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