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Post by tesoe on Apr 5, 2018 15:05:40 GMT
PP only does the CID because the community called for it. So far it's been a big success. I think those are two very important facts everyone should remember before flipping out over models in the CID. If you really hate the way PP does what the community asked so much, maybe it's time to find a hobby that will cause you less stress.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690 
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Post by zich on Apr 5, 2018 15:06:40 GMT
That is what a lot of people are doing...
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Post by Aegis on Apr 5, 2018 15:13:35 GMT
How can a constumer not feel confused if few months before you say "We tested this simple model with Snipe, but we changed it since Snipe is crazy OP", and few months after you bring out a new model, with great personal abilities (more than the old model), and Snipe on the top of it, and then call it "Powerful but OK"? Is Caine0 available in Trencher theme though to make direct comparison? Snipe is more valuable in theme with big ranged units than in jack theme for example. Actually, as Cygnar player, I think the most egregious combos are with Snipe on either Warjacks or Battle engines, so I disagree that the problem could be that "Snipe is ok on Heavy Metal but not on Gravediggers". Another proof of that is that Caine0 is available in Sons of Tempest where there are quite a bit of units that could benefit gratly from Snipe, likely far more than Trenchers. |
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Post by Aegis on Apr 5, 2018 15:25:47 GMT
PP only does the CID because the community called for it. So far it's been a big success. I think those are two very important facts everyone should remember before flipping out over models in the CID. If you really hate the way PP does what the community asked so much, maybe it's time to find a hobby that will cause you less stress. First, you are exagerating it. Did you see me "flipping out" about Crusader Guard Cid? Or Khador Cid? Or many other totally fine Cids? So saying that there are the same level of complains for every model released is a clear lie and hyperbole. The last time I have seen people getting this level pissed of was Eilish, and in fact the original Eilish was pretty much as stupid as these zero casters. The fact that this time there are 4 models at that degree of brokeness, and only a week to try to balance them, only makes it worse. And about CID... Community started to ask for it since the Devs work started to become poorer and poorer going down through mk3. Warmachine was generally renown for being a very balanced game (there were few outliers, but the game in general was very balanced) for a lot, then some of the original developers left the company, and things like Una2, Karchev, "Stormlances are fine", and other clearly poorly made rules made the community vocal. The answer to that, by PP, was to open CID and make the community fail-proof the dev's work, but that was, as I said, a mild admission of failure, since they once used to be able to put out very balanced models without needing to make the whole comunity testers. That said, CID by itself isn't bad. If devs need it, fine. But what I expect (and other people too), is to have at least to test things that the devs are convinced to be balanced, and maybe adjust some strange combos or skews that they didn't found during their internal playtest. If they present me things at the level of Eilish or the Zeros, it means that they either know that they are presenting broken stuff and are making me (paying customer) lose time to finish the work THEY are paid for (that is barely at the "I got an idea" level), or that they really think that the model is balanced like it is, and then would make me wonder how can people with a so poor understanding of the game be devs. Both options piss me off, and that's why, when this kind of mess comes out (so not everytime like you say), you see me (and others) vent. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 5, 2018 15:27:48 GMT
It's starting to get kinda sad the way people start screaming about the sky falling every time PP asks us to test a model they know is either above or below the power curve so they can zero in on it's game balance. That's the whole point of the CID remember? And also remember how pretty much everything to come out of it has been well balanced? PP: "Hey can you test some models so we don't release something broken?" Community: "This model is to powerful! It's destroying my entire self image and I will now forsake all forms of entertainment that is not making dubstep tracks using only recording of insects I find in my kitchen!" There is a difference between bringing something that is close to ok but needs small tweaks to bringing something that is clearly and obviously broken. Don't forget that they are professional developers. They are paid to bring out models at the correct level of power by themselves. That they ask help from the community to acheive that is already a mild admission of incompetence (while still way better than releasing OP or UP models, usually you expect from a professional gaming company the ability to do so by themselves), but you would expect that what they bring to the community test to be something at least a bit refined and close to the goal, not something that everyone recognizes as broken 2 seconds after seeing it. Other than that, they clearly said "We tested them, they are powerful, but they are ok"... That phrase alone makes me wonder, expecially since it contraddicts their own previous statements. How can a constumer not feel confused if few months before you say "We tested this simple model with Snipe, but we changed it since Snipe is crazy OP", and few months after you bring out a new model, with great personal abilities (more than the old model), and Snipe on the top of it, and then call it "Powerful but OK"? CID shouldn't a place to throw clearly crazy ideas inside and expect people to do the dev's work, should be a place to make stress tests about almost finished models to find possible little interaction missed during the internal playtest.That's without adding that they clearly said "we are happy about them and find them ok", and in fact they gave us only 1 week to test them... Dunno what you find sad about being pissed off by this kind of service as paying customers... I find this part particularly egregious considering their outright hostility when we spot an issue and try to do the dev's work. If you're lucky you get a dev talk, if you're not you get sooper sekrit testing data(matched by 0 publicly available tests). then girded. some of their early iterations are far too powerful, people spot abuses, test those abuses, and show abuses. Sometimes those abuses get rectified, but frankly I consider those weeks "lost" weeks of testing since they simply shouldn't have been put out like that. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 15:34:16 GMT
Look at my star rating and tell me I'm not justified That's a joke, right? You're not seriously implying that a measurement of how often you post online somehow eqates to how rational or valid your opinion is? Because the level of doomsaying parts of the community likes to do every time a new model hits CID is totally unjustified. It's a joke because the forum tag for 1000+ post is "The Sky fell" |
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Post by tesoe on Apr 5, 2018 15:41:23 GMT
That's a joke, right? You're not seriously implying that a measurement of how often you post online somehow eqates to how rational or valid your opinion is? Because the level of doomsaying parts of the community likes to do every time a new model hits CID is totally unjustified. It's a joke because the forum tag for 1000+ post is "The Sky fell" Hah! I hardly pay attention to those. That actually made me laugh out loud. I almost choked on my morning tea. |
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Post by tesoe on Apr 5, 2018 15:44:57 GMT
PP only does the CID because the community called for it. So far it's been a big success. I think those are two very important facts everyone should remember before flipping out over models in the CID. If you really hate the way PP does what the community asked so much, maybe it's time to find a hobby that will cause you less stress. ...The last time I have seen people getting this level pissed of was Eilish, and in fact the original Eilish was pretty much as stupid as these zero casters... Oh hey Eilish. He good example of why people should cool their jets. |
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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 5, 2018 15:46:47 GMT
People already fighting tooth and nail to keep this OP crap as well. PP needs to figure out a way to reduce the noise in CID. Users with suspiciously PoM sounding names popping out of the woodwork to say Sev0 is just fine.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 5, 2018 15:48:48 GMT
...The last time I have seen people getting this level pissed of was Eilish, and in fact the original Eilish was pretty much as stupid as these zero casters... Oh hey Eilish. He good example of why people should cool their jets. It's true that Eilish was eventually toned back into acceptability, but if the Devs knew he was way too good to start with, it begs the question 'why did they bother to release the rules like that to begin with?' Was it just to see if people agreed that he was too good? why do they need the community to confirm what is patently obvious? |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 15:49:42 GMT
[grumble grumble]... then girded.
Sorry, I find that hilarious. Though not inaccurate. I mean come on, Abby1 was released CID week one with the ability to transfer limitlessly to a warbeast with an upkeep that provided that beast with buffs. Completely level headed decision. Week 2 Ice witches turned from misguided offensive support model to a 27" cloud wall with a generally terrible summon vortex. Anamag was... just dumb. And even after the Legion players showed how dumb she could be she lost... 1 point of arm. Thagrosh 2 got a "worse than Abby 2" feat in week one and the world had to cry out to get it reverted. Blightbringer got to auto-hit spray any model it wanted Khador tank solos were wildly unbalanced to start, even compared to themselves. (Spray tanker vs AP tank) Skarre 3 was just disgusting and is still at the top of the upper limits These things were PP's published ideas. They thought that they would be "good" for the model/faction/game. CID is not remotely perfect and I would say that PP is starting farther and farther away from the mark with each attempt. and yeah... Champions of the wall were "almost perfect" |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 15:50:48 GMT
People already fighting tooth and nail to keep this OP crap as well. PP needs to figure out a way to reduce the noise in CID. Users with suspiciously PoM sounding names popping out of the woodwork to say Sev0 is just fine. Sevvy 0 is just fine |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 15:51:26 GMT
Oh hey Eilish. He good example of why people should cool their jets. It's true that Eilish was eventually toned back into acceptability, but if the Devs knew he was way too good to start with, it begs the question 'why did they bother to release the rules like that to begin with?' Was it just to see if people agreed that he was too good? why do they need the community to confirm what is patently obvious? Also, how many weeks was Elish tested? (I legit don't remember) |
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 15:53:16 GMT
As much as people are complaining that Sev0 and Cain0 are too much like their originals, it could be worse, they could be like Durant1... Just saying.
Play it, provide the battle reports like they expect and demonstrate just how broken it is. It's not like it is that hard.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 5, 2018 15:54:05 GMT
It's true that Eilish was eventually toned back into acceptability, but if the Devs knew he was way too good to start with, it begs the question 'why did they bother to release the rules like that to begin with?' Was it just to see if people agreed that he was too good? why do they need the community to confirm what is patently obvious? Also, how many weeks was Elish tested? (I legit don't remember) He was in the Northkin cycle, so like 3/4 weeks? |
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