Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2018 0:10:57 GMT
It nerfs maybe a tiny range of models, and buffs many more. Nope. It renders Immunity on any low arm single wound models largely useless outside of blast damage, and then only if it's low pow blast damage. Sprays and such will be largely unaffected because they are high pow enough to kill single wound infantry with even only a single damage die. Zealots and Cleansers are getting totally hosed by this change for example. And they weren't great to begin with. PP will now need to do a complete redesign of everything that has Immunities simply because they've altered the value of the ability, and anything that was costed with that ability needs a rework. You happen to play one of the only factions that has a unit really effected by this, so you're blowing it out of proportion. Most models with elemental immunities don't necessarily hinge on them for survival. Zealots and Cleansers do only because they can hit themselves with their fire attacks. For everyone else, their immune units either don't hinge on immunity to function, or they are more likely to face attacks they aren't immune to anyways. You want to make the case that Protectorate gets the short end of the stick here, sure, by all means. And I think you should take advantage of your upcoming CID to make some noise about these units. But don't pretend this has massive negative impacts to the whole game. Most models with immunities won't need anything close to a 'complete redesign'. Arguably even the most egregious example just needs one rule and they're fine. It nerfs maybe a tiny range of models, and buffs many more. Even of those it nerfs, it largely only nerfs some of the most abusive strategies of those models. I think cleansers are really the only guys left who truly used rather than abused or just kindo of had the rule. Basically. Cleansers just need Clear and they're good.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 14, 2018 0:33:12 GMT
Immunity now +4 ARM vs that elemental damage. I like this a lot more.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2018 0:42:08 GMT
Immunity now +4 ARM vs that elemental damage. I like this a lot more. So Carapace vs elements, basically. Makes sense to me.
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Post by W0lfBane on Mar 14, 2018 5:14:39 GMT
I still don't like it.
Mostly cause I think my solution would be better so I refuse to accept any other substitute. I also think that low arm stuff is getting unfairly nerfed.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 14, 2018 13:40:30 GMT
Resistance and Immunity would absolutely be better. They're just not doing that, constraining my choice between this iteration and the previous one. I like this one better.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 14, 2018 14:26:36 GMT
Anything that keeps the dice bellcurve is better than something that reduces it to just 1D6, IMO.
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Post by paradox on Mar 14, 2018 18:27:52 GMT
Meh. As long as they don't go the route Pagani thought might be interesting - that Immune models can still suffer continuous effects, they just auto expire. Because things (like Caustic Presence or Archangel animus) are cannot expire, and trump auto expire. Thus Feora could be set on fire and burn from a continuous effect.
That's further than I'd want immunities to go. It would be really dumb.
I'm fine with -D6 or +4ARM though. ARM18 cleansers still likely die to alot of fire-based shooting, and Oil effects still work on them. But ARM21 Feora or 23 HoJ will be pretty durable.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 14, 2018 18:42:22 GMT
I like +4 ARM more than -1d6. While they're mostly equivalent, it just feels more consistent to me, given how impervious flesh worked.
Still super ticked another faction getting multiple purifications, an anti-spellcasting feat, and a way to cancel fire immunity.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 14, 2018 18:42:31 GMT
Immunity now +4 ARM vs that elemental damage. I like this a lot more. So Carapace vs elements, basically. Makes sense to me. would have preferred +5 arm but most of my major complaints are not as bad as they were. cleansers are less likely to explode from their own for now at least.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 14, 2018 18:51:44 GMT
-snip- You want to make the case that Protectorate gets the short end of the stick here, sure, by all means. And I think you should take advantage of your upcoming CID to make some noise about these units. But don't pretend this has massive negative impacts to the whole game. Most models with immunities won't need anything close to a 'complete redesign'. Arguably even the most egregious example just needs one rule and they're fine. -snip- Unfortunately, this won't have legs and anyone that tries will be ignored for the CID, and possibly temp banned. Zealots and Cleansers are the units most in need of a pass here, and the only fire related thing in exemplars will be Cinerators. PP has been getting quite short with people trying to drag extra stuff in. The best non-exemplar theme targets for us are Reznik 1 and Kreoss 2. FWIW I think zealots are fine. one of them might bomb himself, but then you'll have +4 armor for the rest of the turn. I also typically use the damage hymn on bombing turn anyway, so fire immunity becomes moot.
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Post by W0lfBane on Mar 14, 2018 18:58:06 GMT
I will admit this immunity is preferable to the previous version. I just dislike both versions
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Post by zotz204 on Mar 14, 2018 19:22:59 GMT
I will admit this immunity is preferable to the previous version. I just dislike both versions Agreed. I find it better than the previous version in the same way I’d prefer losing an arm to losing a head.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 19:36:59 GMT
I will admit this immunity is preferable to the previous version. I just dislike both versions Agreed. I find it better than the previous version in the same way I’d prefer losing an arm to losing a head. Thats a bit extreme. Do you equate Cleansers losing some of their unjamming potential for losing a head? the number of fire type weapons that suddenly have use vs. Immunities makes me feel like Protectorate is a real winner of the Immunity change.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 14, 2018 19:43:59 GMT
Agreed. I find it better than the previous version in the same way I’d prefer losing an arm to losing a head. Thats a bit extreme. Do you equate Cleansers losing some of their unjamming potential for losing a head? the number of fire type weapons that suddenly have use vs. Immunities makes me feel like Protectorate is a real winner of the Immunity change. This is how I've been reading it. Feoras 1 and 2 are still unhappy, but they'll at least be able to let their armies play the game now. Most of the rest are strictly buffed. All that's left is carefully examining sparknodes, but PP is being cagey about it. Oddly, they aren't getting aggressive at the people talking about the issue, so I think it might be on their radars.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 19:57:00 GMT
Thats a bit extreme. Do you equate Cleansers losing some of their unjamming potential for losing a head? the number of fire type weapons that suddenly have use vs. Immunities makes me feel like Protectorate is a real winner of the Immunity change. This is how I've been reading it. Feoras 1 and 2 are still unhappy, but they'll at least be able to let their armies play the game now. Most of the rest are strictly buffed. All that's left is carefully examining sparknodes, but PP is being cagey about it. Oddly, they aren't getting aggressive at the people talking about the issue, so I think it might be on their radars. Honestly if Nemo3 gets a soft nerf while this change goes thru (ie his feat goes to +2 damage instead of Weapon Master, or his feat targets enemy models in his control area instead of friendlies) Id probably stop complaining about Sparknoding. Im definitely frustrated by "my arm 15 storm pod 'Immune' to all the storm striders pow 15 weapon master shots."
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