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Post by W0lfBane on Jan 6, 2018 21:25:36 GMT
Honestly all our light jacks need recosting
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 6, 2018 21:33:16 GMT
Honestly all our light jacks need recosting you think? assuming no mechanical changes of any kind, the only ones I think are off are the repenter and purifier, both of which could stand to be buffed (and I'd rather an ability buff than a point decrease tbh on both).
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Post by W0lfBane on Jan 6, 2018 21:39:46 GMT
Honestly all our light jacks need recosting you think? assuming no mechanical changes of any kind, the only ones I think are off are the repenter and purifier, both of which could stand to be buffed (and I'd rather an ability buff than a point decrease tbh on both). dervish needs to be bumped a point Redeemer needs to go down a point. Vigilant and revenger need half a point reduction That's 6 of them between you and i
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 6, 2018 22:03:57 GMT
I dunno. See, I'm all for buffing that which needs it, and I'll use any buff PP throws my way, but none of the jacks you're talking about need buffs. Half point reductions don't even work anyway. Just so I have a line on how you're thinking, imagine you're king of PP for a day:
What exactly changes about the vigilant and revenger?
See, my thoughts on the exemplars come from examining the self deliverability and effects of other infantry at similar costs: anything with guns have range, banes have ghostly/prowl, satyxis have whipping winds, champs have DEF/ARM/TOUGH/STEADY/ARM/box with sanguine, Cavalry have sheer speed, and all of them can accomplish a lot.
Exemplars can accomplish a lot, but fail to self deliver, unerringly requiring caster support by having OK defense, middling armor, low speed, no pathfinder, etc. Knights Exemplar get around it by being pretty cheap for what they do, but the rest of our exemplars are errants (confused, too many solos to make list building work right anymore), bastions and cinerators (half the thread discusses these), and Vengers, which are actually pretty good but suffer from lance/close combat as well as being quite costly.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jan 6, 2018 22:21:27 GMT
I dunno. See, I'm all for buffing that which needs it, and I'll use any buff PP throws my way, but none of the jacks you're talking about need buffs. Half point reductions don't even work anyway. Just so I have a line on how you're thinking, imagine you're king of PP for a day: What exactly changes about the vigilant and revenger? See, my thoughts on the exemplars come from examining the self deliverability and effects of other infantry at similar costs: anything with guns have range, banes have ghostly/prowl, satyxis have whipping winds, champs have DEF/ARM/TOUGH/STEADY/ARM/box with sanguine, Cavalry have sheer speed, and all of them can accomplish a lot. Exemplars can accomplish a lot, but fail to self deliver, unerringly requiring caster support by having OK defense, middling armor, low speed, no pathfinder, etc. Knights Exemplar get around it by being pretty cheap for what they do, but the rest of our exemplars are errants (confused, too many solos to make list building work right anymore), bastions and cinerators (half the thread discusses these), and Vengers, which are actually pretty good but suffer from lance/close combat as well as being quite costly. A minor buff would be equivalent to a a half point reduction. Something like steady or sturdy for the vigilant. I honestly don't know what the revenge needs but I feel he needs something. Honestly we should discuss everything cause we don't know what pp will add to the pool of things to be tested. They can add jacks and casters and other stuff to the CID
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khobai
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Post by khobai on Jan 7, 2018 0:08:08 GMT
they definitely need to recost our lights. almost all of them are costed wrong. 9-10 points for a light is way too much when 10 points gets you a crusader.
bov: 13 -> 12 points
redeemer: 11 -> 10 points
revenger: 10 -> 9 points
devout: 9 -> 8 points
dervish: 7 -> 8 points
vigilant: 9 -> 8 points and girded needs a buff (would help the champion too)
purifier: 8 -> 7 points and should gain blazing wrath (free charges vs models on fire)
repenter: 8 -> 7 points
8 points is what the dervish should cost. it wouldnt be overcosted. it would be accurately costed.
and I think players would consider the purifier at 7 points if it had blazing wrath. making it cheaper and giving it a free charge makes it potentially better than the dervish in a number of situations.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 7, 2018 0:40:14 GMT
But most have some little trick or other, compared to the plainest beatsick in the game.
Arcnode/boopshield 2x caster defense Sidestep/parry Massive range
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khobai
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Post by khobai on Jan 7, 2018 0:43:59 GMT
but that little trick doesnt make them equal to a crusader
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 7, 2018 0:56:21 GMT
I can't get a crusader to charge a foot, boune off a rocketeer, and lay into zerkova.
I can't get ashes to ashes past their lines.
It wont neuter opposed arc nodes and can actually HELP blast damage home in if used to block.
And it definitely won't take out objectives early.
There's more than the main weapon PS to consider.
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khobai
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Post by khobai on Jan 7, 2018 1:05:30 GMT
There's more than the main weapon PS to consider. of course. which is why its maybe worth 9 points. but its certainly not worth 10 points. revenger is crap at 10 points. and im not just considering the crusader's main weapon. im considering its off hand weapon and its extra ARM and hull boxes too. the revenger might be able to do some things the crusader can't but its generally worse and shouldnt cost the same. same with the redeemer. its ranged weapon is situationally good, but most of the time its not going to outperform a crusader. 11 points is ridiculous. almost all of our light warjacks are a point overcosted. except the dervish is a point undercosted.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 7, 2018 4:01:10 GMT
No longer talking Exemplar but I guess it’s not too off topic since it’s CiD talk.
I actually think our lights aren’t half bad.
Repenters is fine. If anything just give it a slight cost reduction. I used them a lot in early mk3.
Revenger needs a point reduction. 8 or 9 points seems legit. Blessing of Vengence should have an equal cost reduction to the Revenger. 13 is just too darn high lol
Purifier needs to swap point costs with Dervish and gain cleave or something to solidify as an infantry/shieldwall thresher.
Dervish goes up to 8
I actually think both the vigilant and Devout are fine. I could see vigilant gaining steady and something akin to “lash” that keeps models B2B from being knocked down. That might be too good all together on certain casters though.
He redeemer is also fine.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 7, 2018 4:22:55 GMT
steady/lash/roadblock/girded ARM 21 is a pipe dream package for 9 points.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 7, 2018 5:53:05 GMT
steady/lash/roadblock/girded ARM 21 is a pipe dream package for 9 points. Yeah I know, I did say I thought both jacks were fine. But we are wishlisting.
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khobai
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Post by khobai on Jan 7, 2018 6:16:12 GMT
Vigilant definitely doesnt do enough to be worth 9 points. Vigilant needs steady and/or sturdy and girded needs a buff (girded is just way too weak of an ability)
And the Devout's spell barrier is way too easy to circumvent in MK3. If it stays at 9 points it should go back to its MK2 version.
If we didnt lose the +2 attack from the choir id agree.
Both the Redeemer and Repenter cost too much without that accuracy bonus
Alternatively they could just change inaccurate from -4 to "-2 and cant get aiming bonus". Id be okay with it at 11 points then.
Or give the repenter a 10" spray so it can get the aiming bonus more easily. Then it would be fine at 8 points.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 7, 2018 6:28:43 GMT
that inaccurate fix would actually hurt the redeemer IMO. I've been jack marshaling it: hurry turn 1, get to a position with a commanding field of fire, aim for +2/+2, battle for an extra 2 damage. you're sending POW 16, blast 10 down the field. yes, it's RAT 3, but it makes very short work of objectives and follows up reckoner shots nicely.
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