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Post by windfury on Dec 15, 2017 20:52:29 GMT
Hello,
I've been lurking for the past month as I've slowly been working my way back into playing WM/Hordes. I stopped playing way back when Mk. 1 was transitioning into Mk. 2 and thus completely skipped that whole edition. I used to be mainly a Menoth player and I had picked up some Trolls as a 2nd faction, but I had some fun with them in Mk.1 but probably only played ~20 games with Trolls in total back then.
Due to current circumstances I don't have my Menoth models at this time (though I hope to get them back) but I still had access to my Trolls and I have played 4 games with them so far in Mk. 3
I managed to cobble together a list from my Mk. 1 stuff that I had for my 1st game.
1st Game List
Borka 1 - Storm of the North Theme
2/3 Free Cards 75/75 Points
Borka 1 (+28 Battlegroup Points)
Kenny the Keg Carrier (0)
Dire Troll Mauler (0 - 15 Battlegroup Points)
Troll Axer (0 - 10 Battlegroup Points)
Troll Bouncer (6 - 3 Battlegroup Points)
Winter Troll (8)
Fell Caller Hero (0 (5) - Free)
Fell Caller Hero (0 (5) - Free)
Max Krielstone (9)
Max Champions (16)
Max Champions (16)
Max Long Riders (20)
As you can see I didn't even own another model that I could take for free at the time, but it still went OK. I played against a Khador list with Nyss Hunters and Assassins and a couple of Heavies with I think Irusk 2? (Solid Ground spell and the feat that reduces speed - please confirm?) We couldn't finish as he had to go but I'd managed to wreck 1 of the heavies with the Mauler and a bunch of the assassins with the Champions, but I was missing most of the Long Riders, and Champions by then too.
After this I decided to buy a few more newer things to help round my list out, I loved the look and feel of the Northkin stuff so I focused on that to start with.
Adjusted List
Borka 1 - Storm of the North Theme
3/3 Free Cards 75/75 Points
Borka 1 (+28 Battlegroup Points)
Kenny the Keg Carrier (0)
Dire Troll Mauler (0 - 15 Battlegroup Points)
Troll Axer (0 - 10 Battlegroup Points)
Troll Bouncer (6 - 3 Battlegroup Points)
Fell Caller Hero (0 (5) - Free)
Fell Caller Hero (0 (5) - Free)
Trollkin Champion Hero (0 (5) - Free)
Max Krielstone (9)
- Northkin Elder (3)
Max Champions (16)
- Skaldi Bonehammer (5)
Max Champions (16)
Max Long Riders (20)
Brief Summary of the other 3 games I played with this list
1. Got wrecked hard by a Doomy 3 MK + Mulg list that ate my champions for breakfast
2. Rematch against Khador player with a slightly different list in that instead of multiple heavies he had a Conquest, this ended up better for me as I managed to get into the Conquest with my Mauler and kill half of it in 1 round and then he headbutted my Mauler rather than take initial attacks and then rolled poor damage and left my mauler alive with all aspects and I killed it the next round, and my long riders took care of the Nyss and the Champions were mixed in with the Assassins (again he had to go, but this time I felt ahead).
3. Match with Kromac 1 in a heavy beast list he moved up on his turn to what he thought was outside my charge range but he forgot about the SPD boosts from the Northkin Elder/Borka so everything was just in range and I managed to take out about half the beasts in that 1 round with Champions and Long Riders, a couple of rounds later he tried to fight back with Kromac, but left himself in Charge distance of Borka with no transfer targets and only 10 health after his feat (This did not end well).
I'm slowly starting to remember all of the synergy tricks that Trolls have and the order of operations to make this work properly, though I'm still having trouble trying to maneuver everything correctly and I'm finding myself several inches out of range way more than I'd like, and I'm just glad I haven't really played with a clock yet as I'm sure I'd be well over. I've also got to learn how to play to scenarios as that wasn't really anything I did back in Mk. 1 outside the occasional tournament.
Also out of curiosity what is considered a good ranged unit for Trolls now? I have a unit of Burrowers and I hear I missed their glory days of MK. 2, but I just got myself a War Wagon as it looks too cool to not have but then I found I don't really have a Kriel Company List unless I want to take 3 Impalers and that unit of Burrowers and from what I've heard that sounds like that way lies badness.
Thanks for reading my rather long-winded introduction and I hope to be a part of the community here for a long while. Any List critique or other general advice/assistance is more than welcome.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Dec 16, 2017 1:18:35 GMT
Welcome! The list seems generally good, although I wouldn't go with double Fell Caller myself. If you are planning to stick with Storm or switch to Power of Dhunia, Northkin Shamans and Whelps are both good investments. We don't seem to have unlocked Kriel Company yet, but Northkin Fire Eaters are solid shooters and valid in Storm of the North, too. I want the Pyg Lookouts to be useful, but I don't recall seeing more than one list on here with them in it, but they are valid for both themes as well. The Dire Troll Bomber has one of the best guns in the game, though, and is valid in every theme.
It sounds like you are off to a good start, playing games and working out order of activation and positioning. I'd recommend playing with a clock some of the time, even if you and your opponent agree that the game doesn't end when the clock does, just so it doesn't feel so weird later when you get into games where you have to. Heck, I know a guy who plays better on the clock than he does without one.
Good luck and good thinking!
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Post by windfury on Dec 17, 2017 1:15:18 GMT
Thanks for the reply. On the Fell Caller front, can you delve into the reasoning of preferring a Shaman or Whelps instead of the 2nd Fell Caller? From what I can tell the only thing the Shaman can do that is really different is that 1 3" cloud, not too sure how useful that would be in general over a 2nd Pathfinder or +2 MAT Unit of Champions/Long Riders. The Whelps seem interesting as well but looking back on my games I'm not sure I can remember a part where they would really have been useful and mostly I would haven't even but most of them on the board.
I'm sure I'll be playing with a clock soon, most of the people around the store use one so I'm sure it'll happen soon.
I've made lots of purchases into Trolls to pickup a ton of stuff that I didn't own before, so I've got quite alot of stuff that I haven't even tried yet, but I'm looking forward to breaking out soon. The Bomber looks fun and I've picked 1 up so far, thinking about getting a 2nd as I see most lists that have 1 usually have 2. The lookouts seem interesting too, I'll probably pick some up eventually, as I'm a collector type of guy and like to have at least 1 of everything.
Anyways this is what I've come up with based on what I currently own to try for a Kriel Company list.
Hope to break this out after Christmas as I need that time to assemble half of the list hehe.
War Room Army
Trollblood - Grim 1
Theme: Kriel Company
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Grim Angus - WB: +29
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0
- Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Pyre Troll - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
- Winter Troll - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
War Wagon - PC: 16
Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw - PC: 0
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Pyg Burrowers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
Thumper Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
Trollkin Highwaymen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Dec 17, 2017 13:21:48 GMT
You should probably look at the other thread about unlocking Kriel company. The war wagon is terrific, apparently, but I'd suggest getting some scatterguns in there to clear jam. I haven't played KC much, though, so don't take my word for it.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274 
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Post by jarrow on Dec 18, 2017 6:44:07 GMT
YOur Borka list looks really good start and SoTN variant even better. I would personally play fennblades over longriders (and therefor BoH theme) because arcane ward make them pain for enemy to remove and they act like ranged unit (18" threat range).
I have liked following list:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes
!!! Your army contains a pre-release entry.
(Borka 1) Borka Kegslayer [+28]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Rok [19]
- Troll Basher [7]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Stone Scribe Chronicler [0(4)]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Trollkin Champion Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Sons of Bragg [11]
Trollkin Champions (max) [16]
- Skaldi Bonehammer [5]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]
As for ranged units, fire-eaters are absolutely best ranged unit we have. Pyg Bushwackers are OK becouse they can combine and in some cases even aim with shooters and walk with assistants for re-rollable rat 8 shots), but most just lack of range. And biggest problem with Kriel company theme is that it lack punch, so in tournament environment it will lose list chickens (as really typical list pair is armor-spam and infantry spam). Also bonuses on Kriel company theme are not that good (+1 to start is good, but it still wont guarantee you winning roll). But as mazog said, there is another thread about unlocking Kriel Company and it's only theme that allows war wagon, so it can't be as bad it looks. (and most likely pyg lookouts are just key piece of that puzzle).
SotN theme allows also really solid combined arms list that have ranged via raiders, fire-eaters and beasts but still have punch but northkin stone, champions and melee beasts. (Raiders are melee unit that have solid ranged option). But don't take us as we are always right. This game is now less finding the ultimate-super-hyper-list and more building list that suits you personal play style and mastering that list, than before. And top list / casters get nerf all the time and bad casters get buff so variety of casters on tournaments is wider than before, so building direct counters is harder than ever.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 18, 2017 7:15:34 GMT
I think the SotN version of Borka you posted looks fine. The reason why many of us would only use one fell caller is that the chanmpions with Skaldi get pathfinder on the charge anyway, and all your units are high MAT, so they might not need the +2 MAT as much. It is not a bad choice though. I personally do not like the champion hero at all, but some players like it. A glaring weakness is that you do not really have any magical attacks in the list. If the list was in Band of Heroes, you would have the stone scribe elder to get rid of incorporeal in a pinch, but here you need to commit Borka in melee if there is any kind of incorporeal stuff around. The battle group is OK, though i think Rök is good enough with Borka to really warrant an inclusion. That messes a bit with your points, but it should be workable by dropping for example the champ hero and making skaldi free. He would replace the Mauler in that case. The reason why i think he is well worth it here is that he benefits from the +1 SPD of the stone, and Stumbling drunk makes him a LOT harder to kill than one might think. He can also do serious work while having Rush rather than Rage, and you have an axer in there... A Mauler with Rush is not super good at killing stuff, so i prefer Rök here. On to the Grim list. I actually think that not having an attachment for the stone is fine here, since Grim has Marked for Death, and you do not care much about the +1 STR. Your list WILL have a hard time killing any amount of heavy armor though. Now in MK3, you can have "infantry swarm" lists that still have 4+ heavies. Your list will be very hard pressed to handle 4 heavies. In KC it is really hard to manage the ARM cracking part, and this will never become your "anti ARM drop", but i think you must pump of the muscle a bit for it to be viable against most types of lists. Burrowers were the best unit in the game in MK2. Now they are in contention for the worst imo. You may think that their POW 14 guns can do some work with Grims DEF debuffs, but their short threat ranges usually means they will do nothing. I would consider Sons of Bragg over the Burrowers. The SoBs are also a bad unit, but in KC, they are one of the best ARM cracking options you will get. Grim gives them pathfinder which is actually very good for them. Then they can at least try and hide in a forest and hope they will not be shot down right away... Many players consider a MK + a pyre as the BG of Grim. The MK is really good with him (assault + kill shot with the DEF debuffs means it can kill lots of infantry, and it already murders heavies easily enough), though you may not own one, and they are expensive. They are well worth owning nowadays though. If you spend ALL of your remaining points on units/WWs you get 3 free solos/cannons though, and that is often "the golden standard" of any theme list. You will not have snipe then, but Grim CAN manage without it. It is nice to have for sure, but RNG 13 is fine, especially since the feat can help protect Grim for a round. Anyway, this would be a drastic change to the list, and i try not to suggest those too often. In short: The Borka list looks pretty fine as is. Grim needs to sharpen his claws a little bit, but the concept over all is close to what you want. Welcome back to the game  |
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Post by windfury on Dec 18, 2017 17:30:43 GMT
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
A couple of questions/comments:
jarrow said: "I would personally play fennblades over longriders (and therefor BoH theme) because arcane ward make them pain for enemy to remove and they act like ranged unit (18" threat range)."
I presume the 18" include the Vengeance 3" and both the Feat and the mini-feat correct? That seems somewhat unreliable to me especially trying to fit everyone inside Borka's small control range is already really tough, plus needing the opponent to damage 1 of them at that kind of range. I usually leave the Long Riders out on a flank to help threaten 1 side, though I'll admit that hasn't been working out all that well but they usually at least tie up a unit or jack/beast or 2 for a couple of rounds while I concentrate on the centre. Though I am looking into Borka/Madrak 1 in BoH, but I didn't have Fennblades until last Wednesday and they are still to be assembled before I can use them, so in the new year. Still have to pickup the UA though, but it is on my to be purchased shortly list.
Thanks for the list as well, but unfortunately I don't have half the models in there yet either, but I fully agree about how much fun Arcane Ward is, I love to put it on the Skaldi Champions unit and watch as they absorb attack after attack.
Trollock said: "I personally do not like the champion hero at all, but some players like it."
I agree thus far that I haven't really been getting as much out of the Hero as I thought I would, but from what I can see that is mainly positioning errors on my part and leaving most of the champions out of his Command range way too often. (And then forgetting I have it even when they are inside his range), so I'm waiting for a few more games of hopefully improved usage before I pass judgement myself. I might switching for a Shaman if I'm not seeing much better use and that would possibly help with the occasional incorporeal solo that the SOTN has without the Stone Elder. And if I do that maybe even drop 1 Fell Caller for Double Shaman, that would give me a somewhat decent cloud game if I want it to hide the Stone or Borka.
Trollock said: "The battle group is OK, though i think Rök is good enough with Borka to really warrant an inclusion."
I agree with that as Rök looks really strong but it is not something I've managed to pickup yet, but, as above, it is on my to be purchased shortly list. I will work out a list with Rök shortly, as I'm not wedded to the Bouncer either so squeezing the extra 4 points out to switch to Rök from Mauler shouldn't be too hard.
Trollock said: "Many players consider a MK + a pyre as the BG of Grim."
I will admit I never even considered the MK in that list but once you said that I can't see why I shouldn't have. I'm not really at tournament level yet (Only Borka and Kenny are painted so far, everything else that I'm using is just assembled, a lot is still in boxes as I just got it last week) but I'm trying to figure out some sort of list pairing that I can bring to a tournament in the new year and I thought a ranged list and a melee list was a good starting place for me. Anyways after what you said about the MK I put together this list so far with what I currently own:
Trollblood - Grim 1 - MK
Theme: Kriel Company
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Grim Angus - WB: +29
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0
- Pyre Troll - PC: 8
- Mountain King - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
War Wagon - PC: 16
Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw - PC: 0
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Thumper Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
Trollkin Highwaymen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Trollkin Sorcerer - PC: 3
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3
I'm not truly happy with the Sorcerer or even the Stone Elder but at this time I don't have anything else to fill those 6 points. I'm thinking either drop both and get a Pummeler or a Min unit of Sluggers or Maybe Min the Stone on top of that and get a Min unit of Bushwhackers instead.
Again thanks for the feedback all, I really appreciate it a lot.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Dec 19, 2017 6:28:03 GMT
I really like your Grim list now (although I agree you that sorcerer and stone CA could be something better, but not bad options). Too bad I have too long list armies I want to test still waiting.
And about fenns, if enemy don't kill your front line, they can still threat 15", it's good for you. And as they are def14+concealment, enemy most likely wont kill meny of them. And they only have to start their activation at Borka's controll and Borka is caster that can (and want's to) be forward so 21" bubble is enough. Just have to plan that movement and ensure Borka can activate first.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 19, 2017 6:57:33 GMT
I like the Grim list way better now. The "i have to spend exactly 60 points on units"-conundrum is a big part of why i am not super in love with KC over all. a min unit of sluggers is probably the way to go in the future, bu minimizing the stone and removing the sorcerer, but this should be serviceable |
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Post by windfury on Dec 19, 2017 20:47:11 GMT
Cool thanks a lot for the feedback. I'll be grabbing this rest of the stuff soon and I'm sure I'll have many more ideas than I can play but I'm sure I'll post them up when I've at least given these 2 a little more time.
I was leaning towards the Min Sluggers as the best of those options so I'm glad that someone else had the same thought.
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