Post by borderprince on Oct 26, 2017 10:02:56 GMT
...and I liked it.
(A bit.)
This will be quite a long post, because I think context is required for this to be worth thinking about. It isn't meant to be a whether the Mad Dog needs improvement thread or complaints about the nerfs, just some observations about the current state of the jack in one particular list. It may interest some of you.
I have a Vlad2 Wolves of Winter list. 3x Doomreavers (all with UA), 1x max Outriders, Fenris, free Koldun Lord. It's obviously an anti-Cryx/Grymkin build with all the magic weapons, but I think it does reasonably into a wider range of things, especially fairly warrior heavy lists (Gravediggers don't like the clouds being blown away or their dug in models being hit with quite accurate sprays, for example).
I've been playing around with the battlegroup and have had a few games with Juggernaut, Marauder and Mad Dog.
Juggernaut and Marauder are my go to starting point for non-ranged battlegroups, and then I had 9 points left, 5 of which needed to be spent on jacks. Turns out that Khador does have jacks cheaper than the Marauder, so I decided to give one a try. My thinking for the Mad Dog over the Beserker was that the Beserker needs help to do work, either focus or hit/damage buffs. Vlad2 doesn't give the latter (HoF is on the Outriders) and I would probably have better uses for the focus. I was also thinking that with Assail, a Mad Dog can charge, trample or slam 11" without triggering Unstable. The Wolves list is quite fast with apparitioning Doomreavers, Outriders and Vlad2's feat, so an 11" moving jack might be handy. The Mad Dog would also add to the anti-warrior strength of the list (this turned out to be only partly true). Finally, in Mk3 I've felt uncomfortable without at least 3 jacks in a list, especially if the caster doesn't really do anything for the premium jacks.
I've been playing the list (and variations) into a variety of opponents. Some observations about the Mad Dog, then some high and low points.
General Observations
First, the Mad Dog is unlike any other jack we have. I think the closest equivalent is the Rhulic Basher. You could take the arms off the Mad Dog model. It would still do its job just as well and we wouldn't be deluded into thinking it has weapons we might want to use. Probably the closest Khador equivalent is the Devastator. You can open the chassis up, but much of the time you're better off keeping it closed.
Vlad2's Assail is really handy for the Mad Dog because it can then slam for free. This lets you use the power up focus either to increase the slam move to 11" (handy in a pinch) or to boost the slam attack roll (usually necessary). Adding Assail to the jack makes it both a trample and slam bot, which massively increases its utility and gives it an anti-heavy role. You can do the same with Boundless Charge casters, but Assail can be cast for free in theme and upkept, so a much lower allocation of resources.
You can slam in the same way with other jacks, but they can't get the same threat range and (more importantly), they are much less throw away. It turned out I was happier using the Mad Dog to make some utility slams which left it in a precarious position. I probably wouldn't have done the same with the Juggernaut or Marauder if I thought I might need them in heavy v heavy fights later. The Mad Dog is never going to be needed in those combats, so that concern didn't apply.
Treat it as a bipedal bowling ball, scattering pins or knocking that one key pin, and you're thinking about it right. If it's not just sitting in a zone, looking for power attack opportunities seems to be the way to go.
Second, Khador players are now quite spoiled with our jacks. We think ARM20 with plenty of boxes is normal. It really isn't. Yes the Mad Dog is much squishier than a Juggernaut chassis jack. But it's still ARM18 with boxes. That means it requires some concentrated effort to remove quickly. One or more of a loaded up heavy, hard-hitting warriors and debuffs. That means a couple of things. First, that the Mad Dog can take some of the heat off the other jacks. Most opposing lists will need to prioritise against 3 jacks, but the Mad Dog is closer and might already be doing worthwhile things. Second (and related), it becomes a handy piece in scenario play (especially combined with slams/tramples). Not only can it score certain zones, but it then becomes a 9 point priority, leaving your Juggernaut less damaged before it gets where you want it to be. I've found that Wolves lists are quite squishy (not really surprising), so having a bit more armour in the game can be helpful.
Third, the Unstable rule. I didn't find this much of a hinderance. Most of the time I was only using one focus. Sometimes I used two, but didn't trigger the unstable effect. However, it does factor into decision-making. If you're making a long-range slam which requires boosting, you have to be willing to risk blowing the jack up. I usually was - it's not much worse than leaving it in a precarious position.
Highs and Lows
1. Slam a bonejack arc node, get charged next turn by Bane Riders. Predictably the Mad Dog doesn't survive. But the Bane Riders were nicely bunched up, and two feated Doom Reavers got to live the Beserk Dream (well, one of them did. The first one only lived the dream briefly thanks to an over-enthusiastic comrade). Happy with that exchange.
2. Long distance slam a Cygnar heavy (can't believe it was a Centurion, so probably an Ironclad). Roll well on the slam. The additional distance from Assail means the Ironclad hits Arlan. Mad Dog dies to retaliation next turn. Happy with this too.
3. Move fast to get into farthest zone in Spread the Net. Slam opposing jack out of it. Get thrown out later. Repeat later. Essentially ping-pong with jacks. Fun, but also kept the zone live, helping prevent a scenario defeat, and diverts more expensive opposing models to deal with it.
4. Trample shield-walled Temple Flameguard in the Guardians of the Temple theme. Miss most of them. One toughs. One dies. Mad Dog left looking rather stupid, albeit behind enemy lines. Doesn't really achieve anything all game.
5. Long trample through Trencher cloud wall. Kill one. End up in melee range of Finn. Cygnar player doesn't want to take the free strike so ums and ahs about diverting a jack to take out the Mad Dog. In the end leaves Finn in place thinking I'd miss the attacks. He's right. But Finn isn't going anwhere either. Not impressive, but I'm satisfied with no killing spree or slugger shots against my Doomreavers.
6. Sit in closest Standoff zone all game, blocking route to objective and freeing up the Juggernaut and Marauder to deal with opposing heavies. Seems like a decent use of 9 points to me.
All of this could be done by something else. But that something else would be more expensive (too expensive, in the context of this list). So not a bad deal. And for a few of these, the Mad Dog's speed was crucial. Turns out an extra 2" makes a big difference (that's a life lesson if ever there was one). I've also tried the list with a Juggernaut + Devastator battlgroup. Frankly, the Devastator often just acts like a tougher, but slower, Mad Dog. I'm not convinced it's necessarily an improvement (especially against Cryx), although the switching also includes adding Alexia2, who I do like.
So I played the Mad Dog just to try it. It's still in contention as part of the battlegroup for the list, so I think that suggests it isn't a total write-off of a jack and might have some niche as a power-attack bot, but not just a trample bot.
(A bit.)
This will be quite a long post, because I think context is required for this to be worth thinking about. It isn't meant to be a whether the Mad Dog needs improvement thread or complaints about the nerfs, just some observations about the current state of the jack in one particular list. It may interest some of you.
I have a Vlad2 Wolves of Winter list. 3x Doomreavers (all with UA), 1x max Outriders, Fenris, free Koldun Lord. It's obviously an anti-Cryx/Grymkin build with all the magic weapons, but I think it does reasonably into a wider range of things, especially fairly warrior heavy lists (Gravediggers don't like the clouds being blown away or their dug in models being hit with quite accurate sprays, for example).
I've been playing around with the battlegroup and have had a few games with Juggernaut, Marauder and Mad Dog.
Juggernaut and Marauder are my go to starting point for non-ranged battlegroups, and then I had 9 points left, 5 of which needed to be spent on jacks. Turns out that Khador does have jacks cheaper than the Marauder, so I decided to give one a try. My thinking for the Mad Dog over the Beserker was that the Beserker needs help to do work, either focus or hit/damage buffs. Vlad2 doesn't give the latter (HoF is on the Outriders) and I would probably have better uses for the focus. I was also thinking that with Assail, a Mad Dog can charge, trample or slam 11" without triggering Unstable. The Wolves list is quite fast with apparitioning Doomreavers, Outriders and Vlad2's feat, so an 11" moving jack might be handy. The Mad Dog would also add to the anti-warrior strength of the list (this turned out to be only partly true). Finally, in Mk3 I've felt uncomfortable without at least 3 jacks in a list, especially if the caster doesn't really do anything for the premium jacks.
I've been playing the list (and variations) into a variety of opponents. Some observations about the Mad Dog, then some high and low points.
General Observations
First, the Mad Dog is unlike any other jack we have. I think the closest equivalent is the Rhulic Basher. You could take the arms off the Mad Dog model. It would still do its job just as well and we wouldn't be deluded into thinking it has weapons we might want to use. Probably the closest Khador equivalent is the Devastator. You can open the chassis up, but much of the time you're better off keeping it closed.
Vlad2's Assail is really handy for the Mad Dog because it can then slam for free. This lets you use the power up focus either to increase the slam move to 11" (handy in a pinch) or to boost the slam attack roll (usually necessary). Adding Assail to the jack makes it both a trample and slam bot, which massively increases its utility and gives it an anti-heavy role. You can do the same with Boundless Charge casters, but Assail can be cast for free in theme and upkept, so a much lower allocation of resources.
You can slam in the same way with other jacks, but they can't get the same threat range and (more importantly), they are much less throw away. It turned out I was happier using the Mad Dog to make some utility slams which left it in a precarious position. I probably wouldn't have done the same with the Juggernaut or Marauder if I thought I might need them in heavy v heavy fights later. The Mad Dog is never going to be needed in those combats, so that concern didn't apply.
Treat it as a bipedal bowling ball, scattering pins or knocking that one key pin, and you're thinking about it right. If it's not just sitting in a zone, looking for power attack opportunities seems to be the way to go.
Second, Khador players are now quite spoiled with our jacks. We think ARM20 with plenty of boxes is normal. It really isn't. Yes the Mad Dog is much squishier than a Juggernaut chassis jack. But it's still ARM18 with boxes. That means it requires some concentrated effort to remove quickly. One or more of a loaded up heavy, hard-hitting warriors and debuffs. That means a couple of things. First, that the Mad Dog can take some of the heat off the other jacks. Most opposing lists will need to prioritise against 3 jacks, but the Mad Dog is closer and might already be doing worthwhile things. Second (and related), it becomes a handy piece in scenario play (especially combined with slams/tramples). Not only can it score certain zones, but it then becomes a 9 point priority, leaving your Juggernaut less damaged before it gets where you want it to be. I've found that Wolves lists are quite squishy (not really surprising), so having a bit more armour in the game can be helpful.
Third, the Unstable rule. I didn't find this much of a hinderance. Most of the time I was only using one focus. Sometimes I used two, but didn't trigger the unstable effect. However, it does factor into decision-making. If you're making a long-range slam which requires boosting, you have to be willing to risk blowing the jack up. I usually was - it's not much worse than leaving it in a precarious position.
Highs and Lows
1. Slam a bonejack arc node, get charged next turn by Bane Riders. Predictably the Mad Dog doesn't survive. But the Bane Riders were nicely bunched up, and two feated Doom Reavers got to live the Beserk Dream (well, one of them did. The first one only lived the dream briefly thanks to an over-enthusiastic comrade). Happy with that exchange.
2. Long distance slam a Cygnar heavy (can't believe it was a Centurion, so probably an Ironclad). Roll well on the slam. The additional distance from Assail means the Ironclad hits Arlan. Mad Dog dies to retaliation next turn. Happy with this too.
3. Move fast to get into farthest zone in Spread the Net. Slam opposing jack out of it. Get thrown out later. Repeat later. Essentially ping-pong with jacks. Fun, but also kept the zone live, helping prevent a scenario defeat, and diverts more expensive opposing models to deal with it.
4. Trample shield-walled Temple Flameguard in the Guardians of the Temple theme. Miss most of them. One toughs. One dies. Mad Dog left looking rather stupid, albeit behind enemy lines. Doesn't really achieve anything all game.
5. Long trample through Trencher cloud wall. Kill one. End up in melee range of Finn. Cygnar player doesn't want to take the free strike so ums and ahs about diverting a jack to take out the Mad Dog. In the end leaves Finn in place thinking I'd miss the attacks. He's right. But Finn isn't going anwhere either. Not impressive, but I'm satisfied with no killing spree or slugger shots against my Doomreavers.
6. Sit in closest Standoff zone all game, blocking route to objective and freeing up the Juggernaut and Marauder to deal with opposing heavies. Seems like a decent use of 9 points to me.
All of this could be done by something else. But that something else would be more expensive (too expensive, in the context of this list). So not a bad deal. And for a few of these, the Mad Dog's speed was crucial. Turns out an extra 2" makes a big difference (that's a life lesson if ever there was one). I've also tried the list with a Juggernaut + Devastator battlgroup. Frankly, the Devastator often just acts like a tougher, but slower, Mad Dog. I'm not convinced it's necessarily an improvement (especially against Cryx), although the switching also includes adding Alexia2, who I do like.
So I played the Mad Dog just to try it. It's still in contention as part of the battlegroup for the list, so I think that suggests it isn't a total write-off of a jack and might have some niche as a power-attack bot, but not just a trample bot.
.
