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Post by GumbaFish on Oct 28, 2017 14:07:43 GMT
Yeah, I feel like if they went back down to 8 points they wouldn't resurface as a problem due to the karchev change. Also, the game has changed quite a bit with new SR and theme forces. Maybe I'm wrong, but it did feel like they were only broken in one specific combo but got nerfed across the board in response. Similar to what happened with scarsfell griffons and Una 2.
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Post by tapecrawler on Oct 28, 2017 15:35:02 GMT
The Kharchev and Una nerfs were a bit heavy handed in my opinion, but at the time that was fairly standard. I wonder if they can be revisited in CID and made to be more viable options. I don’t believe either one is played much outside of a few players, but the more current nerfs (especially to Haley2) have seemed to tone them down without making them virtually unplayable. I hope so, because right now our Jack specific casters are rarely played. And it would be fun to run an army of ALL the jacks and still be somewhat competitive.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 28, 2017 15:36:34 GMT
I think PP are concerned (rightly, at least to some extent), that it's not what the jacks can achieve which worries them, but the extent to which a battlefield flooded with repeats of a jack in large numbers is an unpleasant play experience. Too many jacks can prevent scenario wins and make certain model types fairly ineffective. The nerf was handled clumsily (and probably excessively), but I get the idea behind it.
I think when (if ever) the Berserker chassis jacks get to CiD, we'll have to accept them staying at 9 points, and try to work within that. I think that should be possible, but there will doubtless be lots of complaints.
It's also worth pointing out that Butcher1 can still achieve Karchev like levels of offensive power with lots of cheap jacks and is still available - Full Throttle for the boosted attack rolls (and free charges) and feat for the boosted damage. You lose the movement tricks, so it's less effective, but it remains a possibility.
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Post by GumbaFish on Oct 28, 2017 17:40:17 GMT
Do you think if everything remained the same and they lost unstable they would see more play? I think the main problem now might be that it is good a trampling and the marauder is good vs. huge bases. I'm more interested in the marauder because I'm more concerned with being able to take trade a 10 point jack to do considerable damage to or kill a high value target. While trampling is fun, I just think I have fewer matchups where the marauder will have no role whereas I think mad dogs could certainly have their place but will also suffer from a lot of matchups where they lack a defined and useful role. Perhaps this means they just need to revisit the design, or perhaps I just need to wait for infantry spam to return more.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 28, 2017 18:21:48 GMT
I don't know that losing unstable fixes them, because the basic fact is that focus put on a Berserker chassis is usually focus that is doing less than it would on any other jack, so even without Unstable you don't particularly want to put focus on them.
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Post by tapecrawler on Oct 28, 2017 19:39:23 GMT
In MKII it seemed like most people wanted the unstable rule to be more reliable. They wanted to be able to get it in the mix with infantry and then have it explode when they wanted it too like Bloat Thrall bombs in MKII. Personally I think the Berserker chassis design is fundamentally flawed, it’s too expensive for a throw away model but too pillow fisted to do much. I mean look at the Rager, it’s 11 points for a crappy jack with shield guard. It has a shield cannon but also has an abysmal RAT of 3 and doesn’t even have an AOE to mitigate the miss. For a point less I can take a MOW Kovnik AND an Ogrun Bokur that will accomplish the same thing as a Rager but also have more utility.
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Post by GumbaFish on Oct 28, 2017 20:29:34 GMT
Yeah I agree their role should be looked at and better defined. For example, if they were cheap and easy to kill but had flank then it might make sense that I throw them in to finish a kill or combo a few to kill something. On their own they wouldn't be good, but with support then they become a threat. I'm not necessarily suggesting flank as a fix, but was just trying to provide an example of how you could have a piece which is useful but not powerful by itself.
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Post by welshhoppo on Oct 28, 2017 20:36:16 GMT
A mad dog you say?
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Post by borderprince on Oct 29, 2017 4:54:29 GMT
My view on the chassis as a whole is that they need to do something that other Khador jacks don't provide to make them distinctive, otherwise you just get the sensible "take a Marauder" argument. And that unique feature can't just be "they might explode!".
For the Mad Dog at present that's accurate tramples and more speed. I'm OK with that, although I think going back to jury-rigged would be a justifiable improvement at 9pts and not game-breaking at that point level. Possibly giving its weapons the Open Fists rule to give more flexibility too.
The Berserker is more difficult because it's a beater jack, like so many of the existing Khador jacks. I'd consider something like free charges and bonus move on the charge (but not running - it's meant to be an aggressive jack). Some sort of inbuilt Hunter's Mark might work. Being faster is an advantage in Khador. But it needs more then that to be distinctive and worth the 9 points. A buff to the charge maybe (powerful or brutal)? Grievous wounds would be interesting (fluff it as all Berserkers being experienced and vicious fighters). It might then be worth charging a Berserker into something you were worried about not one-rounding and it is unique among jacks. Could have a STR boosting ability which damages the ARM systems - a melee version of jury-rigged. 2xP+S18s would be good for 9pts, especially with a free charge.
As for Unstable, PP will definitely keep it. I'd like every use of Focus to damage a Cortex box (posibly going up to 3 boxes), with explosions only happening at random after they've all gone (but giving every jack in the chassis a free movement ability so they're not damaged before actually fighting). It gives a bit more control to the Khador player, but not completely.
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Post by tapecrawler on Oct 29, 2017 15:55:48 GMT
It would be nice if when the jack is destroyed it creates an AOE. I’d definitely consider buying some then. Because then they would be the Khadoran version of Spiny Growth. That should pose an interesting question for the opponent, do I hit this with troops and risk them getting blown to smithereens or do I potentially tie up a more expensive model that won’t be destroyed.
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