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Post by beastofwar on Nov 3, 2017 5:25:34 GMT
I agree with you wolf child. You make some excellent points. Currently I'm on the fence with this game. I used to love it but now it just agitated me. However I'm gonna keep trying for a while.
When 8 have spoken to other players they have told me denial is the way forward with circle. Using different hit and run tactics from mark 3.
I will play the list and let you know how I do. I have a feeling it won't work but better to try new things. Sometimes what's on paper is not as good as how it works on the table.
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Post by beastofwar on Nov 3, 2017 5:27:03 GMT
Sorry I meant different hit and run tactics from mark 2.
It's 5 am and I'm on a bus lol.
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Post by wolfchild on Nov 3, 2017 13:13:06 GMT
Please don’t turn from the game. It’s very frustrating, but still so much better than most of the other major systems out there. Eg. There are still massive holes in GW’s 2 flagship systems. WM/H is still a far more immersive game, that actually challenges a player’s brain in every game. There’s a lot to be said for that.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 3, 2017 13:34:49 GMT
Please don’t turn from the game. It’s very frustrating, but still so much better than most of the other major systems out there. Eg. There are still massive holes in GW’s 2 flagship systems. WM/H is still a far more immersive game, that actually challenges a player’s brain in every game. There’s a lot to be said for that. beastofwar yeah dude don't leave this game. It has a pretty great community and is incredibly immersive and rewarding. I have not played a game yet that I find to have the depth of warmachine, that does not make you drown in rules interactions. Circle is perfectly acceptable in MK3. We have rough internal balance for sure, but we are more than capable of competing with the pack. Don't let people on here go around telling you we are bad. Our biggest boogeyman, the dreaded 10 heavy list is significantly less common with the advent of themes. We are more than capable of kicking any faction in the balls
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Post by jisidro on Nov 3, 2017 14:49:10 GMT
I agree with you wolf child. You make some excellent points. Currently I'm on the fence with this game. I used to love it but now it just agitated me. However I'm gonna keep trying for a while. When 8 have spoken to other players they have told me denial is the way forward with circle. Using different hit and run tactics from mark 3. I will play the list and let you know how I do. I have a feeling it won't work but better to try new things. Sometimes what's on paper is not as good as how it works on the table.
For me Circle is either chewing my nails to see if I can survive this turn with my heavies/important stuff or I'm 100% safe out of LOS. It's never easy, it's never about putting your opponent to the Wall. Even with wurmwood it's always about making sure the tree is safe and then proceding to use a Hellmouth/Stranglehold ftw in whatever shape or form it took that particular game... Seems Una2 did put the adversary to the Wall but that was before the meta solving days (I missed my window to play her "broken"). Nowadays she is still a go to caster.
That said, it's very engaging and fun to play. Just like in Mk2.
We are still Circle, our units mostly suck, our beasts mostly die and we still have to crutch on Primal... what mark3 gave us was a Ranged game, and a very playable one. We do not out-threat other ranged lists and we cannot shot from out of retaliation range but we can put a ranged lists against a melee list and that is something new.
Cool stuff that we can (Or I do) take for granted:
- Wold CID will come out as expected. Perhaps the Warden will cost 1 more, perhaps the Guardian will get a new animus or Bradigus gets an unexpected change... But it will make Bones a very very viable list with a fair share of our stable.
- Call of the Wild only living blá blá blá but it's a beast list with our support and one that can be played with a variety of beasts.
- Devourer's Host. Check out the lists it produced in the WTC... lots to do there, not great results but fun to play and a lot better than they look on paper.
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Post by beastofwar on Nov 6, 2017 17:37:02 GMT
I lost monumentally. Could not crunch arm 23 tiberion. He cannot be moved or 0laced as well. Tried using ranged on soldier arm 23 vs ranged. We suck. Tried using Griffin to soften targets... nothing, didn't cause enough damage. Had woldwyrd and wold watcher shooting... couldn't damage arm 23. Charged with wold warden to prevent him from scoring did 12 damage to the soldier which then charged me and killed it.
Am I missing something? I try using tactics that are suggested by come up short. Does anyone else struggle against troll troops arm 23 and beasts arm 23? How do people combat this? I have tried watching battle reps, we win if we face light infantry but get crushed against high arm targets and they are not even as high armour as I face. (Khador, trolls and skorne).
So Griffins are between -12 and -9 on arm 23. The woldwyrd and wold watcher -11. Cannot soften these targets without using an 18 point war beast which will die the following round. You can primal these beasts but losing control of a 18 to 21 point war beast means that's a 1/4 of your army.
Used druids to mask my caster my opponent gave useless sight to his caster and was one timed by a spell.
Placed forests using morvhnanna 1 eruption of life. It just delayed the inevitable.
I don't mind losing but getting crushed so easily just makes me angry. It seems that all the enemy need to do is be place a couple of high armoured targets down and that's auto loss for me. Combined with PF and ES being given out so easily makes our shenanigans redundant.
I know I'm sounding like a nay sayer but I'm just annoyed at how much time I have devoted to game that has ripped me off. Am I supposed to sit here praying that they fix my army? I look at other armies and see the winning synergies and weep. I don't want that feeling when I'm pulling out my army and thinking "Why am I bothering? I'm either gonna lose by round 2 or see that I can't win by round 2).
I'm gonna try a beast theme but am not hopefully. I will reread all the posts do some math.
Thank you for the feed back. Yes the game is great and very thought driven. And YES the community is great but my army seemingly isn't.
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Post by beastofwar on Nov 6, 2017 17:52:40 GMT
I own and refuse to buy any more. What can I do with this?
Casters Baldur 2 Kaya 1 Kromac 1+2 Krueger 1+2 Mosar Morvahna 1+2 Tanith Wurmwood
Warbeasts Feral Ghetorix Magnetized satyr kit Shadowhorn Borax Megalith Pure blood Razor wing Scarfell Rotterhorn Stalker Argus ×2 Winter Argus Guardian Watcher Wyrd Warden
Battle engines Sacral vault
Solos Stone shaper ×2 Wayfarer Witch Gallows ×2 LOTF Reeve Hunter Shaman Whitemane Una Warwolf Maximus Goblin chef
Units Death wolves Reeves Manikins Druids ua Shifting stones ×2 ua x2 Woldstalkers Bloodtrackers ua Blood weavers Ravagers ua Skin walkers ua
Help me. How can I do better with this.
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Post by beastofwar on Nov 6, 2017 18:10:31 GMT
Also have a wilder
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Post by Fudly on Nov 6, 2017 19:37:00 GMT
Try this: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0Wfc4O5K5H5H5l5l4z5A5g5g5f5fCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Call of the Wild (Kromac 2) Kromac, Champion of the Wurm [+28] - Feral Warpwolf [18] - Ghetorix [21] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Warpwolf Stalker [19] - Warpwolf Stalker [19] - Wild Argus [7] - Druid Wilder [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Shifting Stones [0(3)] Shifting Stones [3] Proxy the second stalker with your pureblood, the second scarsfell with a different griffin, and the second wayfarer with a stoneshaper. It's a decent list that can handle a fair amount of armor, but it's still not going to deal with 8 Khador jacks. Luckily, 8 khador jacks isn't great in the overall meta, so it's not common. With respect, you're going "I brought my anti-infantry list into an armor brick and lost." You're playing a pillow-fisted faction. Did you expect something else to happen? Tiberian is tough, but he costs 21 points. If you have to primal your warpwolf to kill something that costs more than your warpwolf, you thank your opponent for the beneficial trade. Even then, you need to do the math in game. A primaled stalker has 1 pow 18 attack, and and 5 pow 20 attacks assuming we can walk to engage. That's off 5 and off 3. If we assume we hit every attack, we'll do 4*5 + 1*2 = 22 damage or 10 damage short of killing the target. You need another armor swing. Can you get into his back arc to avoid the shield, kill the agonizer, debuff his armor with curse of shadows, do 10 with something else, or cast another strength buff? If the answer is no to everything, you probably brought the wrong list. Our best armor breakers right now are Kaya3, Kaya2, and Una2. Once wolds get buffed (hopefully this week), Bradigus will be good too. If you're playing into an armor brick without any of those, you're going to have to greatly outplay your opponent.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 6, 2017 19:51:20 GMT
If your meta is crawling with arm 20+ heavies and tiberion is particularly giving you headaches...then buy kaya 3, get a stalker with wraithbane, full synergy and warp strength into tibbers. and watch his little elephant body parts fly. Stalker hits at Mat 9 P+S21 ignoring the arm buff making tibers arm 23. Does an average of 29 damage but throw in a free charge and you will rock 35 damage which will kill tibbers.
Your collection is a bit limited but based off of your apparently very arm skew meta and your current collection I think you can do the following pairing effectively.
Kaya 3: (proxy with kromac 2 or buy her) In call of the wild -2 Purebloods (proxy feral as a pureblood) -Stalker -2 shadowhorns -2 Scarsfells (proxy rotterhorn as a scarsfell) -gorax 2 Wayfaerers (proxy random solo as one) 2 units of stones one with UA
This list should crack arm, and with hunters mark should help you deliver your army effectively. Use terrain and do not be afraid to feat defensively.
I would pair with this: Wurmwood: Bones -Megs -Guardian -Warden -2 wyrds (proxy watcher for one) 2 Sentry stones (get creative with a proxy?) 3 stoneshapers (proxy random solo) 2 wayfarers (proxy random solo) 2 units of stones with UA 2 gallows groves
You play this into any gunline or any list without pathfinder. Use stranglehold to pin down key pieces and light em up with wyrds. The guardian will hit at P+S 22 with curse of shadows and enrage. Free charge with wayfarer and you can kill just about any heavy in the game.
Do you guys use enough terrain? You should be able to play pretty cagey.
Your meta sounds like a rough place to be a circle player though.
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Post by wolfchild on Nov 6, 2017 20:31:17 GMT
What they said above and consider travelling further to try a new meta.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 10, 2017 5:28:01 GMT
As a skorne player who has an extremely competitive meta I'll help you all out on how to kill Skorne.
1. skorne hates terrain. only the crazy cat lady list can deal with it effectively. 2. bugs have carapace and generally are under krea aura. This gives them 6 additional armor against ranged... subsequently, it also revokes 6 armor when you engage them in melee. They also are at 3 speed... 3. Tibs (tiberian) is being boosted by the krea aura and having you guys under the agonizer's debuff. Without the buffs, he's basically an easily hit warpwolf without his warp functions x.x 4. If you kill skorne's support, they become cake. Circle has a LOT of fast moving units with half decent mat and rat. Sacrifice something in order to go around back and kill the pathetic basilisk krea, agonizer, and beast tamers.
The only list you guys should ever have to worry about when going after skorne is the crazy cat lady list (makeda2 double cavalry) Skornes greatest prowess is during their alpha turn. However, you're a failure of a circle player if you can't deny skorne their alpha. our beasts average speed is 4. With circle it's speed 6. We only have 1 caster who can even that playing field and they only have 5 focus and a huge sized base x.x Happy hunting ^-^
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Post by wolfchild on Nov 12, 2017 1:30:28 GMT
demonic I think u over simplify Skorne’s potential. If they were that weak, no one would play them. It’s not that simple to take out their support without exposing vitals and they only move 4” if ur basing ur list on titans. But there’s so much access to layered buffs and aggressive debuffs that they can do some surprising work. Circle has a lot of tricks but we pay thru the nose for it all making trades uneven and all resources more vital than you’d expect
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 12, 2017 4:26:56 GMT
it's true that you guys have troubles shooting the gladiator off the board (+2 movement and pathfinder animus) but you shouldn't be having issues taking out our support if you have the right pieces. For skorne, our fury management is directly related to our beast tamers. On a basic turn, we have to spend between 4-5 fury on just animi in order to get across the board without incident. Our beast tamers kind if take the role of your wolds' mend and your warpwolves warp buffs, but their main use is whipping off a fury to keep our beasts under control. Sacrificing (yeah, putting anything in the open in front of is is an auto death, which is kind of why we can still play at a competitive level) a ranged unit just for taking the tamers and maybe, if you can manage, the krea/agonizer is easily worth more than taking out any of our heavies. The way a basic kaya list should play is the perfect counter against all of our lists (and I've tried just about them all) except the Makeda2 double cavalry list, which can both handle terrain and engage from half way across the board, while we give one of the units tough and our best solo under storm rager (a dragoon who has a base of 12 ps as well as armor piercing, magical, and 2 inch reach) The only issue with taking you on with that list is that our cavalry is MAT 6, so we can only reliably hit most of your units on feat turn.
Most people get into Skorne because they like the way the models look or how indepth and intriguing their plot is; I mean, what other faction has a vanguard with a broken back strapped to a rhino instead of a wheelchair! Those that like our actual play style is far and few between (khador does it better, menoth has more options). Those that are successful as skorne would usually be much more successful if they used a different faction. Skorne doesn't play well; their players do. Any faction that gets underpowered tends to gain in tournament rankings due to the increase of skill level that comes out of their players when they can no longer just simply power game. Thanks to the increase in lightning immunities, you'll be seeing a lot of cygnar players get increasingly good on a skill basis. Because ghost fleet and dark host have pushed cryx over the edge, you'll see the new players having trouble in developing the foundation skill set. Our meta gets around this flaw by having the better players actually do a turn by turn playthrough of what the "best" move would have been, rather than the "acceptable" move, even for players who won. I've been F'd over several times just by forgetting a secondary effect on a spell. Little to say, I have been memorizing what every spell does and what casters have them. Was F'd over last wednesday because I didn't know Cryx had a large based arc node, no one had ever used him that way.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 12, 2017 4:33:40 GMT
Are you guys not thinking of Krueger2 with CID wolds? Geomancy just gets better the more you have, it's one thing to risk a gallows and quite another to have 2 or 3 at your disposal... He gets the best threat out of our BE. I think he can be at the top of circle again. the best circle player in my meta runs K2 pre CID. Post CID its only become much scarier. He handles infantry, heavies, just about everything and frequently puts up obscene scenario pressure using Kruegers feat, if not just managing threat ranges while he gallows and TKs and woldwyrds and the big ol' magic monkey shoot everything up.
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